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Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history (Read 21837 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #90 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:29am
 
You can't refute my facts about how the Palestinian refugees were created, so you resort to the 'muslim hypocricy' line of argument, and infer that because a muslim said it, of course its bogus. Completely irrelevant to the point I was making, and yes an ad-hominem fallacy. Previously you would be more blatant and attempt to end the argument with childish ad-homs like "oh look, a muslim attacking jews", a muslim being this and that - before I started deleting them for personal attacks.

The actual debate I was having with Yadda that you quoted, was related to the evidence presented by jews themselves - including Israeli intelligence - that the exodus was primarily about Israeli attacks and fear of attacks - not encouragement by the arabs themselves. And this, if it needs to be spelled out, has nothing to do with anti-semitic lying muslims peddling propaganda - which both of you are so desperate to turn this into.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #91 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:34am
 
Karnal wrote on Jun 5th, 2014 at 11:38pm:

It’s good that you argue free speech should not be subject to the truth because we all make mistakes, Y.




Not so.



You are misrepresenting my argument - the argument that i made - Karnal.

here it is....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1400931617/90#90

I argued that if someone contests what truth is, or, if they contest what is understood to be true, then they [that person] should have the - reasonable - right to publicly present an argument to that effect.






Quote:

And i have absolutely no objection to the 'MODERATOR' of the "Extremism Exposed" board, having a bias.

Don't get me wrong, i am all favour of any and all biases being expressed, and thereby allowing biases to be EXPOSED to the scrutiny of others.

But i would suggest that in acting as a censor [which you are], you are stiffling open debate on contentous issues - which need debating.

In your actions of deeming views 'offensive' [and censoring / deleting them], this is not debate, and such an approach does not expose truly offensive views to the open srcutiny of all.

If my views are truly 'offensive', let forum members condem my views and opinions openly.

This forum is supposed to be a place where contentious issues can be debated.

In such a forum, if the detractors [of certain comments] have a legitimate complaint, then let them air it [in the forum], and have their complaint tested in debate!
.....FOR ALL TO SEE!!!!

Open societies do not fear the opinions of fools.
....they rather, EXPOSE and laugh at folly!

In any free and open debate, if a 'position' is absurd, if an 'argument' is absurd,
...then the debater is [often] condemned to all,
....WITH HIS OWN WORDS.


And i would suggest that [so called] 'offensive' biases [and as many as possible!!] need to be expressed - AND EXPOSED TO SCRUTINY.

In that way, with evidence and argument presented, others can judge for themselves, whether an expressed bias is,
....reason-able,
OR,
....irrational.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #92 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:58am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:29am:
You can't refute my facts about how the Palestinian refugees were created, so you resort to the 'muslim hypocricy' line of argument, and infer that because a muslim said it, of course its bogus. Completely irrelevant to the point I was making, and yes an ad-hominem fallacy. Previously you would be more blatant and attempt to end the argument with childish ad-homs like "oh look, a muslim attacking jews", a muslim being this and that - before I started deleting them for personal attacks.


The actual debate I was having with Yadda that you quoted, was related to the evidence presented by jews themselves - including Israeli intelligence - that the exodus was primarily about Israeli attacks and fear of attacks - not encouragement by the arabs themselves.


And this, if it needs to be spelled out, has nothing to do with anti-semitic lying muslims peddling propaganda - which both of you are so desperate to turn this into.



gandalf,

But in arguing your case, you are doing moslems are doing, exactly what Benny Morris did.

Benny Morris presented only part of the historical information that was available for review [i.e. Benny Morris included only that information which supported his bias],
AND,
[it looks very much like] Benny Morris - intentionally - misrepresented much of the information which he did present.
[e.g. as per the information which Benny Morris presented, which were 'truncated' extracts from the diary of Theodore Herzl, which were designed to misrepresent Herzl's views]




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #93 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 12:20pm
 
Y, what agenda do you think Benny Morris has in deliberately misrepresenting the facts?

There are many other Israeli historians who have reached the same conclusions he has - in fact they are in the mainstream. Your version of history became fringe after the archives were opened in the early 1980s.

Why do you think the Israeli government removed public access to documents from Israel's own intelligence organisation that stated that the actions of the IDF were the most important factors leading to the evacuations?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #94 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 12:27pm
 
Quote:
You can't refute my facts about how the Palestinian refugees were created, so you resort to the 'muslim hypocricy' line of argument, and infer that because a muslim said it, of course its bogus.


I see. It's another example of me not actually saying what I am saying?

Quote:
Completely irrelevant to the point I was making


Fancy that. The things I don't say, but that you imagine i say, are irrelevant.

Quote:
and yes an ad-hominem fallacy


You'll have to spell this one out.

Quote:
Previously you would be more blatant and attempt to end the argument with childish ad-homs like "oh look, a muslim attacking jews"


That how I start them.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Karnal
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #95 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 1:14pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:34am:
Karnal wrote on Jun 5th, 2014 at 11:38pm:

It’s good that you argue free speech should not be subject to the truth because we all make mistakes, Y.




Not so.



You are misrepresenting my argument - the argument that i made - Karnal.



Thanks, Y. I stand corrected. You said this:

Quote:
We have the right to be mistaken.

It is only human - to be mistaken.

But it is devilish, imo, to unreasonably reject what is obviously and demonstrably, true.


I agree.
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moses
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #96 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:10pm
 
Arab-Israel Conflict - Forgotten Facts!

The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history[b]. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Mediterranean tribe, the Philistines ("Invaders" in Hebrew), that disappeared out over almost 3000 years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil. Romans, in order to conceal their shame and anger with rebellious regions, changed the references to Judea and Samaria by naming them Palestine.

[b]By Steven Shamrak

1.Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in the 14th century B.C.E. Two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2.Since 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for up to 1,000 years with a continuous Jewish presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

3.The only Arab dominion since the Arab invasion and conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

4.King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

5.For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6.Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7.Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray facing Mecca (often with their backs toward Jerusalem).

8.In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source: A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.)

9.In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine. This is how he described that land: A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human.

10.In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures showed that , in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab.

11.A travel guide to Palestine and Syria was published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker; estimated the total population of Jerusalem at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

12.As the Jews came and drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, Arabs followed. They came for jobs, for prosperity, for freedom. And, they came in large numbers.

13.In 1922, with what was widely acknowledged as the illegal separation of Transjordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of the Palestine, while Arab settlement went unrestricted and encouraged by British mandatory authority.

14.Prior to the Second World War Mojli Amin, a member of the Arab Defense Committee for Palestine, proposed the idea "that all the Arabs of Palestine will leave and be divided up amongst the neighboring Arab countries. In exchange for this, all the Jews living in Arab countries will leave and come to Palestine."

15.Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks. Over 80% of the original British
Mandate land was given to Arabs without population transfer of Arabs from the land designated for Jews.

16.In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against Israel.

17.In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors.

18.Some 850,000 Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

19.The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be around 630,000 (where did they get this number?). Based on population census, estimated number of Arabs who left Israel was around 460,000. They were ordered to leave by Arab leaders at the time.

20.From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian state. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated, 58 synagogues in Jerusalem were destroyed and the Jews and Christians were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible
to people of all faiths.

21.Arabs began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1964 only, on the initiative of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat. The idea became popular Arab propaganda tool after Israel re-captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the defensive 6-Day War of 1967.

22.Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, Arab-Palestinians is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel.

Continued  below
l
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moses
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #97 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:11pm
 
Continued from above'

23.Arab refugees INTENTIONALLY were not absorbed or integrated by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass. They are kept as virtual prisoners by the Arab power brokers with misplaced hatred for Jews and Western democracy.

24.There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab ones.

25.The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.

26.Pan-Arabism or the doctrine of Muslim Caliphate declares that all land that used to belong to Muslims must be returned to them. Thus, Spain, for example, must eventually be re-conquered.

The Palestine Mandate. July 24, 1922.

In July 1922, the League of Nations entrusted the Great Britain with The Palestine Mandate. Recognizing "the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine," Great Britain was called upon to facilitate the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine - Eretz Israel (Land of Israel).

General Assembly resolution 181, of Nov. 29, 1947: It calls for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be controlled by a "special international regime" to protect its holy places. The Zionist movement seeking to establish a Jewish state accepted the partition, the Arabs rejected it. The resolution was not carried out: After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, war broke out pitting the embryonic state against surrounding 7 Arab states. Israel gained more land than it would have had under the partition resolution. Neither Israel nor Jordan, which controlled the divided parts of Jerusalem after the war, accepted control of the holy city by an international body.

Security Council resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967: It calls for
"withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied" in the 1967 Six Day War and for "respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." The resolution was not carried out because the Arab side did not recognize Israel, and Israel refused to withdraw.

Steven Shamrak is a columnist in Melbourne, Australia.

Source
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #98 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 12:27pm:
I see. It's another example of me not actually saying what I am saying?


You attempted to "win" the debate by using ad-hominem fallacies (dismiss the argument by dismissing the arguer[s]).

A debate about how the Palestinian refugee crisis began (look at the thread title), you turn it into "of course muslims would [do this and that]", and then some bizarre tangent about you somehow noticing Gandalf abandoned his position about Muhammad not having any sexual relations outside marriage" - I mean really FD? A discussion about the history of Israel, where the hell did that come from??

Do you have any contributions to this debate about 20th century historical facts other than resorting to red herrings like how a muslim debating this would be hypocritical because of what you think Muhammad did 1400 years ago and/or any other irrelevant ad-hom fallacies?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #99 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:52pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Do you have any contributions to this debate about 20th century historical facts other than resorting to red herrings like how a muslim debating this would be hypocritical because of what you think Muhammad did 1400 years ago and/or any other irrelevant ad-hom fallacies?


Now now, G, we shouldn't blame FD for what he doesn't say. I do hope you're not trying your Muselman censorship routine on FD for not saying what you want him to say. We won't have that sort of nonsense here, thank you very much.

Now. Back to the argument: did Mo sleep with his sex slaves or not? They don't call them Mo's sex slaves for nothing, you know.

If you refuse to answer FD's question, you're just another evasive Muslim. Like Abu. 

Put him in the Wiki for censorship and evasion, FD.
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #100 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:53pm
 
Quote:
You attempted to "win" the debate by using ad-hominem fallacies (dismiss the argument by dismissing the arguer[s]).


Would you mind pointing one of these out?

Quote:
A debate about how the Palestinian refugee crisis began (look at the thread title), you turn it into "of course muslims would [do this and that]", and then some bizarre tangent about you somehow noticing Gandalf abandoned his position about Muhammad not having any sexual relations outside marriage" - I mean really FD? A discussion about the history of Israel, where the hell did that come from??


That's what this thread was about for a long time. You dropped it as soon as the evidence was rolled out.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #101 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 4:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:53pm:
That's what this thread was about for a long time. You dropped it as soon as the evidence was rolled out.


The thread is 4 months old. I have no idea what was argued then without looking back through it. I only remember Y's latest revival of it - which was squarely about the Palestinian people and the circumstances surrounding their eviction.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #102 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 4:30pm
 
It keeps coming up but. For some reason you don't think Muhammed had sex outside of marriage. I'll try to find a more appropriate thread to bump.
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Karnal
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #103 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 4:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 4:30pm:
It keeps coming up but.


Exactly. Mo's sex slaves are a huge issue in Palestine right now. Everybody's talking about it.

But will your Muselman acknowledge this? Not on your life.

Google: Taqiyya.

Don't you pay any attention to G's evasion, FD. You should make him answer your question or throw him off the board.

Personally, I find this Muslim censorship nonsense completely out of step with our enlightened Western values. It makes my blood boil, it really does.

They should all be banned.
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Yadda
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Re: Palestine - a nation with a prestigious history
Reply #104 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 5:28pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 1:14pm:

Thanks, Y. I stand corrected. You said this:

Quote:
We have the right to be mistaken.

It is only human - to be mistaken.

But it is devilish, imo, to unreasonably reject what is obviously and demonstrably, true.


I agree.





My reply, to post #95.....





The position on freedom of expression, which i, Yadda, support;

Quote:

here it is....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1400931617/90#90

I argued that if someone contests what truth is, or, if they contest what is understood to be true, then they [that person]
should have the - reasonable - right to publicly present an argument to that effect.







CONTRAST.....
The position on freedom of expression, that is promoted by ISLAM and the moslem;


IMAGE.....
...
"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

"Disbelievers must not be permitted to scrutinise or criticise ISLAM!"


To moslems, the Jihad against the enemies of Allah's religion, is never considered to be an immoral or hypocritical [or an ungrateful] act.






The position on freedom of expression, that is promoted by ISLAM and the moslem;

Is that >> the moslem << [exclusively!] will have the right to express, what the moslem has to say
.

But,   ....that the world view(s) of all other persons - those who don't believe as they [moslems] believe [who hold  views which 'offend' the moslem] - must be legally banned.



Ideally the moslem would like to bring about the political circumstance where the moslem can engage in a monologue - to be in a political environment where where he has the authority to lawfully ban all other/opposing views from being expressed.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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