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Why Nations Fail (Read 36225 times)
BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #90 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:12am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 15th, 2014 at 7:23am:
Why Nations Fail (by Acemoglu and Robinson) is a book I am currently reading that attempts to explain the enormous variations in wealth seen in the world today. It attributes these differences to economic institutions, which are largely dictated by political institutions. Institutions is intended in the broad meaning - eg property rights, democracy etc. It highlights how both the patterns in wealth and the patterns in these institutions have been very (though not entirely) stable over the last 150 years, and argues an institutional inertia (my term) that goes beyond the influence of the powerful individuals involved. It suggests why it is so hard to break the mold, and how to break it (not up to that part yet).

It also rejects some of the conventional arguments - eg:

* Culture - that Protestant, Judea-Christian, European or Roman culture is what makes the west so rich, while attempting to disentangle the various meanings of culture. Culture is part of the economic and political institutions that make countries rich or poor. He even argues that the middle east is not poor because of Islam, though I suspect he has never met anyone like Abu.

* Geography - that people in hot countries are lazy, or the soil is less fertile, and various more complicated version of this theory. It addresses the "Guns, Germs and Steel" hypothesis of Jared Diamond and puts it in it's place as an explanation for why the west was able to dominate the world, while highlighting the inability of this theory to explain vast differences in wealth seen in those countries colonised or settled by Europeans.

* Ignorance - that leaders or people in poor countries do not understand how to get rich. This is the explanation favoured by many modern economists. It highlights that even when they do understand, the people in power usually don't want to. Even when they are forced to or try to make the change, it is fraught with danger, because the problems are institutionalised within the economy and the politics. The idiotic economic policies of various tinpot dictators are not determined out of ignorance of economics, but by the economic and political institutions that for the tinpot dictators are an unchangeable reality they must work within.

The causes of wealth and poverty are economic and political freedoms and rights that are closely linked or interact. For example - secure property rights, including patents, economic freedom, democracy and a broad distribution (separation) of political power.

In historical terms, it largely attributes these differences to "accidents of history".

They don't change their momentum!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #91 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:13am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 15th, 2014 at 7:23am:
Why Nations Fail (by Acemoglu and Robinson) is a book I am currently reading that attempts to explain the enormous variations in wealth seen in the world today. It attributes these differences to economic institutions, which are largely dictated by political institutions. Institutions is intended in the broad meaning - eg property rights, democracy etc. It highlights how both the patterns in wealth and the patterns in these institutions have been very (though not entirely) stable over the last 150 years, and argues an institutional inertia (my term) that goes beyond the influence of the powerful individuals involved. It suggests why it is so hard to break the mold, and how to break it (not up to that part yet).

It also rejects some of the conventional arguments - eg:

* Culture - that Protestant, Judea-Christian, European or Roman culture is what makes the west so rich, while attempting to disentangle the various meanings of culture. Culture is part of the economic and political institutions that make countries rich or poor. He even argues that the middle east is not poor because of Islam, though I suspect he has never met anyone like Abu.

* Geography - that people in hot countries are lazy, or the soil is less fertile, and various more complicated version of this theory. It addresses the "Guns, Germs and Steel" hypothesis of Jared Diamond and puts it in it's place as an explanation for why the west was able to dominate the world, while highlighting the inability of this theory to explain vast differences in wealth seen in those countries colonised or settled by Europeans.

* Ignorance - that leaders or people in poor countries do not understand how to get rich. This is the explanation favoured by many modern economists. It highlights that even when they do understand, the people in power usually don't want to. Even when they are forced to or try to make the change, it is fraught with danger, because the problems are institutionalised within the economy and the politics. The idiotic economic policies of various tinpot dictators are not determined out of ignorance of economics, but by the economic and political institutions that for the tinpot dictators are an unchangeable reality they must work within.

The causes of wealth and poverty are economic and political freedoms and rights that are closely linked or interact. For example - secure property rights, including patents, economic freedom, democracy and a broad distribution (separation) of political power.

In historical terms, it largely attributes these differences to "accidents of history".

They don't change their momentum!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #92 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:16am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:04am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:41am:
Another no-go in Europe is mentioning the Irish-English issue in the mixed company of British and Irish people. Interestingly, its the Irish in the group who do not appreciate the subject being brought up because they cannot predict their emotional response as the conversation delves into Irish grievances. They particularly do not like foreigners bringing up the subject. Some conflicts leave a cultural scar on the psyche.


Correct.

Not many Irish who hate the English are aware of the fact that Irish immigrants in New York, soon after 'The Famine', went on a 10-day rampage of genocidal butchery aimed at killing every black man they could find. They dragged the blacks out of their hiding places and slaughtered them in the streets.

That's true. The immigrant illiterate Irish were the most reviled of white nationalities in New York and were the ones who competed with blacks for low paying jobs.

The Irish were roundly despised in Australia as well.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:04am:
Throwing stones in glass-houses does have it's hazards.

I once had a Croatian thug giving me a hard time about the British Empire, and stealing Australia from the abos .. etc. He wasn't smiling. He genuinely was a nasty thug of a human being.

It never occurred to him that perhaps his own country also had a few questionable skeletons in the cupboard ~ such as an exterminatioin camp that even disgusted visiting German Nazis.

Yes. The Croats I've known have either never been told (or so they say) of their nation's collaborationist history or refuse to talk about it... But, then again, so do many Austrians, whose collaborationist history was mostly ripped out of their history books.
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #93 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:53am
 
Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:12am:
Much of the world’s growth is coming in English-speaking countries. Here, according to the Heritage Foundation, are the freest economies on earth in 2014:

Hong Kong
Singapore
Australia
Switzerland
New Zealand
Canada


Only in our present age would anyone think it impolite to point out what five of the six have in common.

What’s so special about the Anglosphere? Chiefly the common law. While other legal systems are deductive, in the sense that a law is written down in the abstract and then applied to particular cases, the common law builds up case by case, like coral. It concerns itself, not with theoretical principles, but with actual disputes. In consequence — and no one is really sure how this came about — it rises from the people rather than descending from the government, assuming residual rights and personal liberty. If something is not expressly prohibited, we expect to be able to do whatever we bloody well like. That attitude makes for a strong economy and a free society.

One man who knows this in his bones is Tony Abbott. He is the most flattering kind of Anglophile: one who sees us British as we are, ‘with all our crimes broad blown, as flush as May’, and yet likes us anyway. But he has given up using the word ‘Anglosphere’ since, whenever he does so, his opponents affect to see connotations of nostalgia, colonial cringe and even racism.
In fact, of course, the Anglosphere concept is about institutions, not ancestry.
It explains why Bermuda is not Haiti, why Hong Kong is not China, why Singapore is not Indonesia. Regular elections, uncensored newspapers, habeas corpus, sanctity of contract, individual freedom, open markets — these things are not the natural condition of an advanced state. They were evolved overwhelmingly in the language in which you are reading these words. When we call these precepts ‘Western’, we’re being polite: they became Western because of a series of military victories by the English-speaking peoples.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/australia-diary/9153721/diary-656/


And here I was thinking the Americans invented freedom and democracy. Now you say it was the British?
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #94 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:18am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:52am:

She first made mention of her enduring hatred and disgust for all German people and (if I remember correctly) publically said she thought the only good German was a dead one.


Correct.

It surprised me too.

Her hatred was uncompromising and all-embracing.
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #95 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 2:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2014 at 7:02pm:
I am a westerner. I do not consider it slavery. Words have meanings. Use them.


You'll have to take that up with NorthofNorth.


Quote:
It was barbaric. I am calling it barbaric. I don't need to have a debate on the philosophy of morality to do that. I am simply calling a spade a spade. I find it helps to communicate the reality of world history if we are honest about where we come from. It certainly helps in avoiding going back there.


I see. You want to "avoid[] going back there". So your point is political rather than analytical.

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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #96 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 7:37pm
 
False dichotomy. It serves both purposes, as I clearly explained in the passage you quoted. If you want to go back to basket weaving, be my guest.
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #97 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 7:37pm:
False dichotomy. It serves both purposes, as I clearly explained in the passage you quoted. If you want to go back to basket weaving, be my guest.


"The reality of world history" has little space for your prejudices.
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #98 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:53am:
And here I was thinking the Americans invented freedom and democracy. Now you say it was the British?


The British and the French invented the idea that is manifest in America - and Australia and Canada and NZ.

The French manifestation of the idea is France (at least 5 revolutions since the late 1700s and at least 5 devastating and humiliating losses in wars) as well as Algeria, Vietnam, Haiti, New Caledonia, Central African Republic, etc. In a word - disasters. Great baguettes but otherwise disasters.

The Enlightenment is a European idea but its British practice is far superior to any of the other versions of it.
Common law and the institutions and social relations that it presupposes and maintains make it far more successful than French or German or Italian Enlightenment. The Germans and the French wrote great and stirring books about it but they just can't DO it.



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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #99 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:19pm
 
Quote:
Common law and the institutions and social relations that it presupposes and maintains make it far more successful than French or German or Italian Enlightenment.


What institutions and social relations, other than the rule of law?

What do you mean by the different flavours of enlightenment?
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #100 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:21pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:18am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:52am:

She first made mention of her enduring hatred and disgust for all German people and (if I remember correctly) publically said she thought the only good German was a dead one.


Correct.

It surprised me too.

Her hatred was uncompromising and all-embracing.

Yes, she summarised the genesis of cultural enmity in the way only a true unquestionable hero can.

The best of us enfranchising the worst in us.
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #101 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 6:46am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:53am:
And here I was thinking the Americans invented freedom and democracy. Now you say it was the British?


The Magna Carta pre-dated the founding of America by several hundred years.

If you can get hold of one of Richard Nixon's speeches 'to the American people' ~ you'll find he itemised a long list of cultural, political, ethical, educational, etc attributes and institutions that the US inherited from the British.

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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #102 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 7:01am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:21pm:
Yes, she summarised the genesis of cultural enmity in the way only a true unquestionable hero can.

The best of us enfranchising the worst in us.


That's made my head spin.

Would you mind deciphering that for me please?
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #103 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 7:17am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:52am:
sherri wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 5:59am:
I do think though that although there was a sense of 'Don't mention the war', people certainly remembered it. My mother never really cared for Germans en masse (so she said) till her dying day, which was only 5 years ago. Mind you, she had some German  neighbours and friends but that was 'different'.

It reminds me of watching Nancy Wake's speech... I think it was when she (ridiculously belatedly) was honoured by Australia when she was finally awarded the Order of Australia in 2004. She first made mention of her enduring hatred and disgust for all German people and (if I remember correctly) publically said she thought the only good German was a dead one. (The Germans had tortured and murdered her French husband during the war).


I used to be shocked when my mother made statements such as 'Germans are a cold, merciless people". But I realize now it was her truth, she lived through the war as a teen. Her father was killed by a German (in Australia, which surprised me when I found out), but she always said she never blamed Germans for that as her dad would have killed them first if he had had the chance, that was war.
Nancy Wake had her personal reasons and it's no good saying they should have felt differently as I doubt they could.
I suppose the main thing though is if you do hate a nationality, you would need to realize why you felt that way, know it was a bit irrational to project it onto present day people and leave it at that. Neither my mother nor Nancy Wake went around actively killing Germans after the war, for example. In fact, in my own home, my parents practically adopted a young German migrant, who was at our home all the time, and my father found him a job etc. But that of course was 'different'. Smiley in my mother's eyes.
Germans as a concept didn't appeal to her, but individually she liked them fine and several were her friends.
Her attitude didn't make any kind of logical sense of course, it was just an emotional reaction.
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Re: Why Nations Fail
Reply #104 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 8:35am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 18th, 2014 at 7:01am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:21pm:
Yes, she summarised the genesis of cultural enmity in the way only a true unquestionable hero can.

The best of us enfranchising the worst in us.


That's made my head spin.

Would you mind deciphering that for me please?

I think national heroes bear a greater responsibility than the rest of us not to cultivate hate.

Heroes such as her are rarely called to account in the way any one of the rest of us would be.

Acid spitting expressed her dark side and, because of her status, in its own small way, legitimises the same in others.

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