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The True Face of Islam? (Read 7816 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #15 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 11:10am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 21st, 2014 at 7:17pm:
Muslims feel the need to, and you are lying if you suggest the ease with which Islam justifies violence has no effect on modern Muslims.


Of course it does. I'm sure many of the Turks invoked some islamic justification for carrying out the Armenian genocide too (and its likely many didn't either). But Islam does not explain that genocide, just as christianity does not explain the many genocides against non-christians - even though religion was heavilly invoked while those were  carried out.

You also need to understand that you are lying if you suggest that the non-violence that islam proscribes towards non-muslims has no effect on the long and proud history (notwithstanding some notable exceptions) of accepting non-muslims, and allowing them to prosper within muslim lands. The example of how they treated the jewish and christian populations of Jerusalem - after centuries of christian persecution - is just one example.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #16 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 1:09pm
 
Quote:
You also need to understand that you are lying if you suggest that the non-violence that islam proscribes towards non-muslims


This is a lie. Muhammed was a violent man. he specifically called for violence. He made violence part of Islam. He merely made it subservient to the interests of the state. No ideology ever promotes constant violence, but you are being deceptive if you equate this with an ideology of non-violence.

Quote:
has no effect on the long and proud history (notwithstanding some notable exceptions) of accepting non-muslims, and allowing them to prosper within muslim lands


Muslims slaughtered non-Muslims when it suited them. They allowed them to survive when it suited them. This rarely amounted to prospering. Islam barely allows Muslims to prosper.

Quote:
The example of how they treated the jewish and christian populations of Jerusalem - after centuries of christian persecution - is just one example.


Is this like your "aborigines are white collar criminals" argument? Why do you so readily accept the stupidity of the abstract example, but throw this principle out the window in deference to Islam?
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #17 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 2:22pm
 
The statement ** the long and proud history (notwithstanding some notable exceptions) of accepting non-muslims, and allowing them to prosper within muslim lands.** should be shifted into the **In honour of Asma bint Marwan and others murdered** thread.

Then again he probably wasn't joking. But engaging in deadly serious lies in order to hide the truth about islam.

The following extracts show the truth:

Quote:
MYTH 1: “Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”

FACT
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in “an offensive manner.” The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.20

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.21

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran’s prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).22

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.

MYTH 2: “As ‘People of the Book,’ Jews and Christians are protected under Islamic law.”

FACT

This argument is rooted in the traditional concept of the “dhimma” (“writ of protection”), which was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Yet, as French authority Jacques Ellul has observed: “One must ask:‘protected against whom?’ When this ‘stranger’ lives in Islamic countries, the answer can only be: against the Muslims themselves.”27

Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were usually allowed, as dhimmis, to practice their faith. This “protection” did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to acknowledge openly the superiority of the true believer — the Muslim.

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the “tribute” (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi.28

Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims, or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non-Muslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were forced to wear distinctive clothing and were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices — as that might offend Muslims. The dhimmi also had to show public deference toward Muslims; for example, always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.29

By the twentieth century, the status of the dhimmi in Muslim lands had not significantly improved. H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909:

The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.


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polite_gandalf
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #18 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 7:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 1:09pm:
This is a lie. Muhammed was a violent man. he specifically called for violence. He made violence part of Islam. He merely made it subservient to the interests of the state.


In all seriousness FD, how would you know when you have never read a biography of Muhammad, nor are familiar with any of the ahadeeth? Its a serious question.

The pre-eminent scholarly authorities on the historical Muhammad, historians such as Bernard Lewis and Montgomery Watt, completely reject your idea of warmongering and aggressive violence as an inherent and essential aspect of Islam. Watt emphasises the social justice message of Muhammad and the Quran, and his desire to end oppression, while Lewis argues that modern day Islamic terrorism has no basis whatsoever in Islamic doctrine. Thats two of the most prominent and respected authorities on Islam, and backed up by a long list of other historians. Against what FD? You using your prejudice and a few misconstrued posts from a couple of muslims on an internet forum to twist what little knowledge you have on Muhammad to paint the historical picture that suits your agenda?

Says Lewis:

Quote:
In Lewis' view, the "by now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century" with "no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition."[44] He further comments that "the fanatical warrior offering his victims the choice of the Koran or the sword is not only untrue, it is impossible" and that "generally speaking, Muslim tolerance of unbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom, until the rise of secularism in the 17th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis#Views_on_Islam

freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 1:09pm:
No ideology ever promotes constant violence, but you are being deceptive if you equate this with an ideology of non-violence.


And you are being deceptive if you equate this with my argument. Islam is not a pacifist religion. It unashamedly promotes violence strictly according to a just war theory. Pretty much in line with the rest of humanity.

freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 1:09pm:
Is this like your "aborigines are white collar criminals" argument? Why do you so readily accept the stupidity of the abstract example, but throw this principle out the window in deference to Islam?


Jerusalem is not an abstract example. It was, and remains extremely specific to both the jewish and christian worlds. Also muslim's behaviour as conquerers and rulers stood in stark contrast to the christian rulers and conquerers. Muslims first captured the city without bloodshed, and its first order of business was to reinstate both jewish and (all) christian's worshipping and residential rights. Then the Christians captured it in a bloodbath, and not long after Saladin captured it during a brief siege and once again reinstated the rights of jews and christians, and gave safe passage to those who fled the city.

But its not the only example, I could mention the treatment of jews during most of islamic rule, or the achtiname of Muhammad, which arguably set the precedent for the acceptance and tolerance of christians during most of islamic rule, or even Abu Bakr's 10 rules of war, which has undeniably formed a core basis of both Islamic jursts and leaders' proscriptions for such things as the humane treatment of non-combatants and preservation of civilian infrastructure. Which incidentally is also re-emphasised in the Quran.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #19 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 10:56pm
 
Quote:
The pre-eminent scholarly authorities on the historical Muhammad, historians such as Bernard Lewis and Montgomery Watt, completely reject your idea of warmongering and aggressive violence as an inherent and essential aspect of Islam.


Shame so many Muslims have it wrong eh?

Quote:
Watt emphasises the social justice message of Muhammad and the Quran, and his desire to end oppression


Whose desire? Muhammed's? He created oppression where there was none before.

Quote:
Against what FD? You using your prejudice and a few misconstrued posts from a couple of muslims on an internet forum to twist what little knowledge you have on Muhammad to paint the historical picture that suits your agenda?


I use the actions of Muhammed himself. For example, he once slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs in one day. It does not matter who I heard this from. What matters is that it is true.

Quote:
It unashamedly promotes violence strictly according to a just war theory.


And executing 800 POWs in one day. Nice theory.

Quote:
Pretty much in line with the rest of humanity.


Except of course all those "wishy washy western liberal morals" you take issue with.

Quote:
Jerusalem is not an abstract example. It was, and remains extremely specific to both the jewish and christian worlds. Also muslim's behaviour as conquerers and rulers stood in stark contrast to the christian rulers and conquerers. Muslims first captured the city without bloodshed, and its first order of business was to reinstate both jewish and (all) christian's worshipping and residential rights


So one example where Muslims refrained from going on the rampage somehow nullifies all the crap that Muhammed himself, and all the other violent Muslims throughout history have done?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #20 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 11:28pm
 
its like you're not even trying anymore FD.

Your response here is beyond pathetic.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Baronvonrort
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #21 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 12:57am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 7:52pm:
how would you know when you have never read a biography of Muhammad

The pre-eminent scholarly authorities on the historical Muhammad, historians such as Bernard Lewis and Montgomery Watt, completely reject your idea of warmongering and aggressive violence as an inherent and essential aspect of Islam.

Islam is not a pacifist religion. It unashamedly promotes violence strictly according to a just war theory.



I prefer the biographies of Muhammad written by Islamic scholars, you have the first one Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq which is a free download,Ibn Hisham and of course The Sealed Nectar.

Montgomery Watt became interested in Islam because of an Ahmadi, the Ahmadi are persecuted by mainstream Islam because of heretical beliefs,The Ahmadi cannot even call themselves muslims where they originated from in Pakistan,if they cannot call themselves muslims is that a credible source?
Quote:
He became interested in Islam through lengthy conversations with an Indian lodger who was of the Ahmadi persuasion
www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/professor-w-montgomery-watt-423394.html


The sealed nectar was awarded first prize by the muslim world league, it is a biography of Muhammad,perhaps that is a more credible source-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar-Raheeq_Al-Makhtum

I like this review from the sunni forum-
Quote:
I am almost finished reading the book,The Sealed Nectar,There are a lot of beheadings and violence,plots,and killing of non muslims just because they are non muslims..i thought Islam was a religion of peace.
www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?87415-A-Question-about-the-Sealed-Nectar...


I started a thread on the sealed nectar which has a link to a free download-
www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1375097576

Why do you give credibility to biographies written by non muslims over biographies that are award winning and written by muslims?
I think the biographies written by muslims about Muhammad have far more credibility.
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #22 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 7:42am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 12:57am:
The sealed nectar


Ah yes, I seem to remember last time we talked about that - you shut up pretty quickly when I quoted the account of clear and blatant treachery and acts of war by the Qurayza against the muslims.

I agree - the Sealed Nectar is a great source for painting Muhammad in a good light. I have no idea why you would think its incriminating though.

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 12:57am:
Why do you give credibility to biographies written by non muslims over biographies that are award winning and written by muslims?


Because they're less biassed?

Duh??  Roll Eyes
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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moses
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #23 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 2:53pm
 
Found this extract which seems to point out that muhammad hated peace

Quote:
Al-Bukhari also collected this Hadith. Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawud (this is the version of Abu Dawud) recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah saying,

إِإِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ بِالْعِينَةِ وَأَخَذْتُمْ بِأَذْنَابِ الْبَقَرِ وَرَضِيتُمْ بِالزَّرْعِ، وَتَرَكْتُمُ الْجِهَادَ


سَلَّطَ اللهُ عَلَيْكُمْ ذُلًّا لَا يَنْزِعُهُ حَتَّى تَرْجِعُوا إِلَى دِينِكُم»

Translation: If you follow the tails of cows (tilling the land), become content with agriculture and abandoned Jihad, Allah will send on you disgrace that He will not remove until, you return to your religion.)''


muhammad certainly was not a peaceful man. he was a warmonger, thief, liar, pedophile, rapist, torturer and mass murderer.

Yet despite the actual degeneracy and malevolence displayed by muslims throughout their entire history, plus the evilness of their writings, sacred text etc., muslims and their apologists still lie and whine on about islam being peaceful.

But then again they have to continually lie, because the truth will destroy islam


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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #24 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 6:09pm
 
Love your apologetic work Gandalf.

Lets start with muslims loving all in Spain, 1066, 3500 to 7000 Jews killed by muslims in Granada in a couple of days. Putting that into perspective only about 330 people were killed by the Spanish Inquisition over centuries.

Italy, Oranto 600 people lost heads by Ottomans because they refused to become muslem ( see the heads in the knave)

Africa, you Shiites were the biggest slave traders of all time possibly killing up to 250 mill.

India 80 mill dead at the hands of and for islam/muslims.

I have ignored wally1 comment as true Shi'ite.
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Pete Waldo
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #25 - Mar 24th, 2014 at 1:12am
 
Gandalf wrote:

Quote:
"I think the Canaanite tangent deserves its own topic - and not on this forum.

Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic."


I agree it deserved its own thread gand, and I wanted to start one in this forum section, but didn't because I knew it would be unrelated to the subject of Islam (as are all things in scripture, that do other than warn God's people about false prophets and Islam).
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_con...

I replied to your post on the Canaanite thread at this link:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1395349065/5#5
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« Last Edit: Mar 24th, 2014 at 1:29am by Pete Waldo »  

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #26 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:39pm
 
Adamant wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 6:09pm:
Love your apologetic work Gandalf.

Lets start with muslims loving all in Spain, 1066, 3500 to 7000 Jews killed by muslims in Granada in a couple of days. Putting that into perspective only about 330 people were killed by the Spanish Inquisition over centuries.

Italy, Oranto 600 people lost heads by Ottomans because they refused to become muslem ( see the heads in the knave)

Africa, you Shiites were the biggest slave traders of all time possibly killing up to 250 mill.

India 80 mill dead at the hands of and for islam/muslims.



Oh look, the source nazi stumbles in with a whole heap of unsourced claims.

Weren't you screaming about plagiarism last time someone else did that?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Adamant
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #27 - Mar 26th, 2014 at 3:32pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:39pm:
Oh look, the source nazi stumbles in with a whole heap of unsourced claims.Weren't you screaming about plagiarism last time someone else did that?


Gandalf I have already proven these things happened in previous threads Abu and Falah admitted they are true but had muslim excuses for the atrocities. I suggest you now, as a muslim apologetic go do your homework, check out previous threads and report back that you are in error.

Happy hunting as the search engine on this site is less than good.
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #28 - Mar 26th, 2014 at 4:39pm
 
Adamant wrote on Mar 26th, 2014 at 3:32pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:39pm:
Oh look, the source nazi stumbles in with a whole heap of unsourced claims.Weren't you screaming about plagiarism last time someone else did that?


Abu and Falah admitted they are true


Of course.
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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #29 - Mar 26th, 2014 at 5:06pm
 
Karnal wrote on Mar 26th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
Adamant wrote on Mar 26th, 2014 at 3:32pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:39pm:
Oh look, the source nazi stumbles in with a whole heap of unsourced claims.Weren't you screaming about plagiarism last time someone else did that?


Abu and Falah admitted they are true


Of course.



Sir Kernal? Obviously a devout a Devout Female Governor General 

I think I might become Admiral Adamant or a General Adamant, I have in the past been awarded the BCF DCM Adamant, that will suffice at the moment.
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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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