Australian Politics Forum - The True Face of Islam?

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96954	Re: The True Face of Islam? Reply #45 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 1:32pm I don't think FD's going to answer that one, G. If you're not careful, he'll start "ignoring" you too.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The True Face of Islam? Reply #46 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:33pm Karnal wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 1:32pm: I don't think FD's going to answer that one, G. If you're not careful, he'll start "ignoring" you too. He's trying to work out how he can pose it as a question that will incriminate me in some way.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #47 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 11:57am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:17pm:

Why is it twisted to assume that the example set and decreed by Muhammed is the Islamic way? Doesn't this make Islam itself twisted? Was Muhammed twisted?

ooh lets get FD to refute FD...

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:46pm:

Islam does not see religious law as static (from what has been posted here anyway). Many see that as a bad thing, but it is actually a good thing. Muhammed was a political ruler as well as a religious leader. Unfortunately this means a lot of his teaching were very specific, whereas most religions focus heavily on values. To forbid people from changing the specific laws would be bad.

The problem is not the religion, but the conservative culture that has grown up around it. To lump politics, culture and religion together as one is misleading and unnecessary. You can change the culture and politics far easier than you can change the religion.

....

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2008 at 8:44pm:

So if the extremists are right and Islam really is antithetical to democracy, how do you account for countries with a majority muslim population that hold on to democracy? Has democracy destroyed Islam, or has Islam merely adapted, like Christianity, to the will of the people?

FD also posted a few articles in that thread arguing how Islam is not inherently opposed to freedom and democracy.

FD, why are you so adamant now that the specific examples and laws laid down by Muhammad as a political leader are intractable, set-in-stone tenets of Islam today? Why do you so relentlessly bang on about the banu qurayza "example" today to argue about devout muslims having no choice but to be brutal thugs - when you had already acknowledged such an "example" was something for that place and time, which could - ney should be changed and done so without necessarily abandoning the values of the religion? Sure you will cite the testimony of Abu and others - but why are you no longer open to the views of muslims such as the ones you quoted in 2007 arguing for Islam's compatibility with the values of modern liberalism?

Are you saying fd is not allowed to change his mind on certain subjects Gandalf?

I know a few people who were Islamic apologists now they say Islam is bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit.

The true face of Islam-
Islamic republic of Iran
Saudi Arabia
Taliban
Boko Haram
Al Shaabab
Islamic state.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The True Face of Islam? Reply #48 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:50pm Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:42pm: Are you saying fd is not allowed to change his mind on certain subjects Gandalf? No. I guess what I'm saying is its completely absurd for FD to make the exact same leaps of logic that he himself had criticised and debunked before.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Baronvonrort

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #49 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:50pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

Are you saying fd is not allowed to change his mind on certain subjects Gandalf?

No. I guess what I'm saying is its completely absurd for FD to make the exact same leaps of logic that he himself had criticised and debunked before.

Perhaps FD has realised the error of his ways after learning about Islam.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Soren

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #50 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 8:17pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:50pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

Are you saying fd is not allowed to change his mind on certain subjects Gandalf?

No. I guess what I'm saying is its completely absurd for FD to make the exact same leaps of logic that he himself had criticised and debunked before.

Perhaps FD has realised the error of his ways after learning about Islam.

Indeed.

"The scales have fallen from his eyes" is the expression.

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Yadda

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #51 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 12:05am

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

I don't think FD's going to answer that one, G. If you're not careful, he'll start "ignoring" you too.

He's trying to work out how he can pose it as a question that will incriminate me in some way.

gandalf,

I suspect that on being exposed to more and 'different' information [about the nature of ISLAM], FD decided to 'sail in a different direction', so to speak.

But gandalf, what about the choices, of a person like yourself ?

?????????

e.g.
When you are confronted with information [in authentic ISLAMIC texts] which speak about, and describe, Mohammed's character, ...are you not repulsed, by such a psyche, as that possessed by Mohammed ?

gandalf,

Every moslem [as an article of faith'], must revere, 'Allah's messenger', Mohammed.

QUESTION;
gandalf, why are you, yourself, stuck in that particular 'rut' ? [i.e. still revering Mohammed]

Perhaps you believe that those accounts of Mohammed's choices, unfairly slander and/or are actually misrepresenting the character of Mohammed ???

Even though those accounts are recorded in ISLAMIC texts, which have been accredited with authenticity by ISLAMIC scholars ???

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1443218540/174#174
Quote:

STRAIGHT FROM THE PROPHETS MOUTH

------------- >

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

In the Hadith verse above, Mohammed is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
i.e. Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And in Koran 9.111, Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed, while seeking to kill Allah's enemies.

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari/ #001.002.025
see also,
hadith/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadith/bukhari/ #004.052.080i
hadith/bukhari/ #004.052.196

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.025

.

MURDERING DISBELIEVERS IS LAWFUL

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

THE EXAMPLE OF MOHAMMED [Allah's messenger]

MOHAMMED INSTRUCTS THE MOSLEM, THAT MURDERING FOR HIS 'RELIGION' IS HALAL....

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #005.059.369

MOHAMMED [Allah's messenger] INSTRUCTS THE MOSLEM, THAT MURDERING A POETESS [WHO IS 'THREATENING' HIS 'RELIGION'] IS HALAL....

Quote:

Ishaq: 676 “[Context note: Asma bint Marwan was a writer. She wrote critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him, like this:] ‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling baby and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’ ”

http://www.foundalis.com/rlg/Islam_and_peace.htm

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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valleyboy

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #52 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:42am

Does Islam actually have a face? I always thought that it was just another repressive and dogmatic religion, with crusty, frock-wearing old men at the helm. Do children in Muslim countries actually have a choice to not be indoctrinated with Islam? What do they teach in Muslim schools? Creationism or Evolution? Which Muslim countries guarantee freedom of and from religion in their Constitutions and actively protect minority ethnic and religious groups? What are the immigration policies of Muslims countries? Do they encourage and foster diversity, tolerance and understanding?

Why do Muslims continue with their repressive, restrictive customs and beliefs, after they have moved to a modern, enlightened, secular society? I've heard them say that they want to be free and live in peace. Yet, the way they behave belies that clearly.

Why do Muslims assume that, once they have moved to the West, their religious beliefs, customs and behaviors should never be questioned or criticized?

I also find it interesting that most 'devout' Muslims I have come across, define themselves by their religion, not their humanity.

So, how would one describe the face of Islam?

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Yadda

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #53 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 9:51am

valleyboy wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:42am:

Does Islam actually have a face? I always thought that it was just another repressive and dogmatic religion, with crusty, frock-wearing old men at the helm. Do children in Muslim countries actually have a choice to not be indoctrinated with Islam? What do they teach in Muslim schools? Creationism or Evolution? Which Muslim countries guarantee freedom of and from religion in their Constitutions and actively protect minority ethnic and religious groups? What are the immigration policies of Muslims countries? Do they encourage and foster diversity, tolerance and understanding?

Why do Muslims continue with their repressive, restrictive customs and beliefs, after they have moved to a modern, enlightened, secular society?

I've heard them say that they want to be free and live in peace. Yet, the way they behave belies that clearly.

Why do Muslims assume that, once they have moved to the West, their religious beliefs, customs and behaviors should never be questioned or criticized?

I also find it interesting that most 'devout' Muslims I have come across, define themselves by their religion, not their humanity.

So, how would one describe the face of Islam?

QUESTION;
"Why do Muslims continue with their repressive, restrictive customs and beliefs, after they have moved to a modern, enlightened, secular society?"

ANSWER;
Because they are, .....moslems.

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Google;
Shahada, confession of faith, of a muslim

"There is no god except for Allah alone; and Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah."

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1418244166/15#15
Quote:

You mean that we [infidels, on OzPol] are guilty of 'stereotyping' members of the Australian mainstream moslem community!!!!

Shock horror!!!!

Fancy having the gall to associate moslems, .......with, .....moslems!

Fancy having the gall to associate moslems, .......with, .....ISLAM [and with ISLAM's laws and tenets] !

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Google;
Shahada, confession of faith, of a muslim

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/1#1
Quote:

"every moslem in Australia is a latent, wanna-be homicidal maniac"

- Yadda

QUESTION;
What about the innocent moslems ?

IMO, [logically] there are no innocent moslems [among persons who have come to the age of consent], and yet still declare themselves to be moslems.

How so [logically] ?

QUESTION;
How credible is it that a person who is devout enough to insist that he is a moslem, is unaware of what ISLAM promotes, and is unaware of what the principle tenets of ISLAM are ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which claims that murdering, in the cause of religious bigotry, is a religious virtue ?

.

CRIMINAL INTENT, IN THE MOSLEM HEART
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1252898491/0#0
Quote:

Every moslem in Australia [and indeed, every moslem on the planet], by self declaring as a moslem, is self declaring a criminal intent [by our laws] against local non-moslems.

ISLAM is a criminal compact among moslems, to wage a violent 'religious' war against non-moslems ['disbelievers'].

.....Basically, fundamentally, all ISLAMIC doctrine translates as enmity, and encourages [criminal] violence, towards ALL non-moslems.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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issuevoter

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #54 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 1:17pm

A couple of days back, President Obama said that IS would not be defeated on the battlefield, and that its ideology had to be defeated. He went on to condemn those who pervert Islam. Of course we have heard this before from most Western leaders. Such statements imply that Obama and others have understandings of Islam and its agenda, but they are not too forthcoming with any facts to defend Islam, other than a general idea that all religions are of the same value, and should be tolerated in the same way.

It’s a nice idea, but it is not borne out by Muzzlim murders of Western Infidels since 1990. These murders, in the hundreds and thousands are passed off as the work of criminals or the insane, not pious Muzzlims . If Western leaders actually think Islam is being perverted they have not presented a believable case. No other religious group has killed and maimed so many of us in the last 25 years; not even in tiny numbers has any other religion murder us Infidels, but it is a religious vendetta by the culprits own admission.

I suspect the policy of appeasement, which is wide spread, is one where the leaders realise that if popular indignation at the murder of Infidels were allowed to sway policy, the Muzzlim world would be in big trouble. So Presidents like Obama are willing to accept a few hundred murders here and there just to keep the peace. The question is, how long the pretence can be kept up.

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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #55 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 4:58pm

You do actually have a point Issue.

Right now there is a young chap in Saudi Arabia who is about to be beheaded and crucified for organising some peaceful protests during the arab spring. There are of course some trumped up charges of murder he "confessed" during torture. Actually Saudi Arabia has one of the highest execution rates in the world - often on similar trumped up charges that is really about quashing dissent against a brutal and oppressive regime. Then of course there's the routine flogging, decapitating etc for so-called moral crimes like homosexuality, adultery and so forth.

You probably missed the howls of moral outrage at this "death cult" from our upstanding leaders. Thats because it never happened. The US showed its true colours when after 9/11 was carried out by 15 out of 19 Saudi nationals they responded by.... err invading Iraq, and giving free passage to bin-Laden's family out of the US.

The worst thing about our silence over the Saudi death cult, is that they aggressively export it outside their own borders - sending their jihadists into conflict zones like Syria, as well as bankrolling Islamic terrorists all over the world. Not directly by the government of course, but highly prominent and visible private players who could easily be stopped by the authorities if there was the will.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: The True Face of Islam? Reply #56 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 10:28pm It may keep the peace, but I, an Infidel, call it cowardice. And so does Islam.
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ordinaryguy

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Re: The True Face of Islam?
Reply #57 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 10:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 4:58pm:

You do actually have a point Issue.

Right now there is a young chap in Saudi Arabia who is about to be beheaded and crucified for organising some peaceful protests during the arab spring. There are of course some trumped up charges of murder he "confessed" during torture. Actually Saudi Arabia has one of the highest execution rates in the world - often on similar trumped up charges that is really about quashing dissent against a brutal and oppressive regime. Then of course there's the routine flogging, decapitating etc for so-called moral crimes like homosexuality, adultery and so forth.

You probably missed the howls of moral outrage at this "death cult" from our upstanding leaders. Thats because it never happened. The US showed its true colours when after 9/11 was carried out by 15 out of 19 Saudi nationals they responded by.... err invading Iraq, and giving free passage to bin-Laden's family out of the US.

The worst thing about our silence over the Saudi death cult, is that they aggressively export it outside their own borders - sending their jihadists into conflict zones like Syria, as well as bankrolling Islamic terrorists all over the world. Not directly by the government of course, but highly prominent and visible private players who could easily be stopped by the authorities if there was the will.

Hmm sounds like a little upset Sunni Muslim isn't to happy with Shia musseys in Saudi Arabia to me. Much like the Sunny ISIS aren't to rapped about the Shia Iraqi's or Shia Iranians.

Putin will sort yas out.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The True Face of Islam? Reply #58 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 7:34am ordinaryguy wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 10:43pm: Hmm sounds like a little upset Sunni Muslim isn't to happy with Shia musseys in Saudi Arabia to me Didn't really think that through did you Matty.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The True Face of Islam? Reply #59 - Oct 3^rd, 2015 at 7:27am wow for once matty actually shut up
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