Warning to Gandalf. It shows human heads cut of by humans muslims!

The Armenian genocide is just another episode in the long chapter in the 'clash of civilizations', where periodic massacres and mass expulsions carried out by both the Christian world and the Islamic world, was symptomatic of the usual tensions, mistrust and outright hostility that is inevitable when any two dominant world powers come head to head. Religious and ethnic minorities within both empires were used as political footballs in this power game - both to demonstrate a show of force to the rival power, as well as using them for convenient scapegoats to maintain support within. This pattern can be seen throughout history: the christian world periodically persecuting and massacring jewish and muslim minorities, and the muslim world doing the same to their jewish and christian minorities.

It is disingenuous to a) claim this was unique or even predominant in the muslim world b) claim an islamic (or christian for that matter) basis for this behaviour and c) deny that this periodic behaviour was interspersed on *BOTH* sides with extended periods of goodwill and tolerance towards their respective minorities. Thus, if we are to talk about "the true face of islam" it would be outright dishonest to ignore the bloodless capture of Jerusalem  in the 7th century, followed by an immediate reinstatement of jewish and certain christian groups who had been persecuted by the East Roman powers, worshiping rights in the city. Ended abruptly by the genocidal reconquest by christian powers a little over 400 years later, and reinstated after Saladin's conquest almost 100 years after. Or the flourishing of jewish culture under the Cordoba Caliphate, as well as numerous other jewish communities throughout the muslim world - from Persia to Morocco. The fact that both jewish and christian intellectuals were able to flourish and make such a valuable contribution to the advancement of science during the islamic golden age, debunks the myth of the christian and jew-hating, genocidal muslim barbarians.

The inescapable fact is that persecution and massacres of christian (and other) minorities in the muslim world, while deplorable and tragic, were relatively rare, and were a symptom of the tensions and conflicts that comes with a clash of civilizations - and was in no way unique to the muslim civilization. But overwhelmingly, the pattern of behaviour of the islamic civilization throughout history was to allow minority populations to coexist and flourish within their borders.

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Muhammed did lots of slaughtering, raping and pillaging. He also specifically endorsed it as part of Islam.

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Muhammed and his immediate succesors did a good job of wiping out the pagans. Muhammed directly endorsed this. Muhammed took a region where Christians, Jews and Pagans were managing to co-exist as equals and replaced it with a society where Muslims were at the top, Christians and Jews under them, and Pagans at the bottom. "Existing" was about the extent of what he allowed, but even this right was not extended to the pagans.

And the FD broken record continues...

Stratos wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:10pm:


Sure, if you look hard enough. That's a little bit different to basing the whole religion on a guy who personally murdered or ordered the execution of thousands of people, and who had a dozen wives and many sex slaves, and who destroyed a society based on equality and replaced it with an oppressive caste system, don't you think?

Or can you honestly not see the difference?

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You brought it up Gandalf. Do you really expect people to not bat an eyelid when you claim there is no Islamic basis for this sort of thing?

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How many people did Jesus kill? How many did Budda kill? How many did Muhammed kill?

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The difference with Islam is you don't have to look hard at all. Muslims will put it on a placard and walk down the street with it. Muhammed spent his life building an oppressive military empire. It is an inescapable part of Islam.

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Have you noticed which board we are on? Would you criticise me for talking about fishing on the fishing board? Or do you reserve this special logic for Islam? You are starting to sound like Brian Ross.

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:57pm:


Of course not FD, far too many people are just like you - sadly. But if we are looking for an "islamic basis" for the treatment of christians, there is the Achtiname of Muhammad. There is no "islamic basis" for slaughtering women and children - which is what the Turks did to the Armenians. Even in your twisted mind you would argue that the "islamic" way would be to spare the women and keep them as sex slaves.

Why can't such events as the capture of Jerusalem, where jews and christians who were persecuted by the Byzantines  immediately had their worshipping and human rights restored - be counted as an "islamic example"?

Minorities in great civilizations have suffered periodic persecutions since time immemorial. Islam is no exception. The causes for this are easy to understand, and there is no need to dig up doctrinal justifications. We don't search for biblical explanations for things like the genocide of the saxons by Charlemagne, or the anhialation of the once thriving jewish population of Spain - even though religion was heavilly invoked while those atrocities happened. I suppose one thing that makes the islamic empires stand out is that they broke the trend of simply wholesale annihilation of entire ethnic groups. Thus the existence of minorities tended to stick out - because they existed.

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Why is it twisted to assume that the example set and decreed by Muhammed is the Islamic way? Doesn't this make Islam itself twisted? Was Muhammed twisted?

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Sure. Which hand Muhammed used to wipe his arse with is also an Islamic example. Islam may be nice to people who surrender unconditionally to it, but this is hardly a virtue. It is cold military strategy.

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Islam is an exception because people are deluded into thinking it is a virtuous religion rather than grubby politics from a violent era. Even by the standards of 7th century Arabia Muhammed set the bar pretty low.

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Yes. Muhammed was a megalomaniac who excused anything in the pursuit of power and pussy.

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Muslims feel the need to, and you are lying if you suggest the ease with which Islam justifies violence has no effect on modern Muslims.

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This is the opposite of reality. Muhammed's execution of 800 Jews in one day goes against the standard of the time. Muhammed wiping out pagan villages because they refused to accept his religion went against the standards typical of the time.