Australian Politics Forum - Muslims in our jails

polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #30 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:29pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 6:12pm:

Gandalf, Karnal (and even you wally, if you can get it past the censor), do you have an alternative explanation for why Islam does so well in prisons? Why is it unreasonable to suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed legitimised many of the activities that landed these people in jail? He got away with a long career robbing caravans. He had a massive harem, including girls as young as 9. He killed anyone who dissed him in public. He blamed it all on the society around him for mistreating him and he never took responsibility for his own misdeeds. He had a huge following. He was the ultimate gangsta.

1. I don't even know if your claim that islam does well in prisons is even true. Abu certainly doesn't say that from the quotes you posted, and all Malik says is "Many people become Muslim in prison" - which is not saying what you are saying. So you could start by explaining where this claim actually comes from. Certainly not from the quotes you posted.

2. I'd be very surprised if rates of converts to islam was higher than rates of converts to christianity in western prisons. And if it wasn't, then that surely puts a pretty big dent in your little theory.

3. Is it more likely that inmates are drawn to islam because of Muhammad's "example" of violence and mayhem, or because they are overwhelmingly members of an underprivileged, lower socio-economic class, and are drawn to Muhammad's socialist message of standing up for the downtrodden and poor? Food for thought.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #31 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm

Quote:

1. I don't even know if your claim that islam does well in prisons is even true. Abu certainly doesn't say that from the quotes you posted, and all Malik says is "Many people become Muslim in prison" - which is not saying what you are saying. So you could start by explaining where this claim actually comes from. Certainly not from the quotes you posted.

Some examples:

100% of Australians in jail on terrorism charges are Muslims.

30% of the Supermax division of Goulburn Gaol are Muslims. This may be doubling up on the terrorism bit.

According to Abu there are also plenty of Muslim rapists, due to judges discriminating against Muslims by giving them longer sentences.

According to the article posted by Wally, Islam is the fastest growing religion in US jails.

Quote:

2. I'd be very surprised if rates of converts to islam was higher than rates of converts to christianity in western prisons. And if it wasn't, then that surely puts a pretty big dent in your little theory.

Not if you mean in an absolute sense. As per Karnal's point, you would expect the conversion rates to reflect the prevalence of the religion in society.

Quote:

Is it more likely that inmates are drawn to islam because of Muhammad's "example" of violence and mayhem, or because they are overwhelmingly members of an underprivileged, lower socio-economic class, and are drawn to Muhammad's socialist message of standing up for the downtrodden and poor? Food for thought.

Muhammed was the one making people poor and treading all over them. He created a caste system with Muslims on top, Christians and Jews in the middle, and Pagans on the bottom (usually six feet under). What draws the inmates is not equality, but the idea of being on top, even if it is all in their head. Islam has nothing to do with equality. It is a cult of superiority, which worked fine when the Muslims were actually on top, but has been disastrous for them ever since (except of course when it comes to recruiting people in jail).

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #32 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 10:13pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Some examples:

100% of Australians in jail on terrorism charges are Muslims.

30% of the Supermax division of Goulburn Gaol are Muslims. This may be doubling up on the terrorism bit.

According to Abu there are also plenty of Muslim rapists, due to judges discriminating against Muslims by giving them longer sentences.

We're talking about inmates who convert in prison - not those who are born muslim - which most of these would be.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

According to the article posted by Wally, Islam is the fastest growing religion in US jails.

Due in large part to muslim immigrants from Pakistan and India.

As for the converts, the article is about islam in the context of the hip-hop culture - which is based around a cult of victimhood and perceived persecution by authority. Not a "I want me some bitches to rape just like my Mo-man" culture.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Muhammed was the one making people poor and treading all over them. He created a caste system with Muslims on top, Christians and Jews in the middle, and Pagans on the bottom (usually six feet under). What draws the inmates is not equality, but the idea of being on top, even if it is all in their head. Islam has nothing to do with equality. It is a cult of superiority, which worked fine when the Muslims were actually on top, but has been disastrous for them ever since (except of course when it comes to recruiting people in jail).

Yes we all know your little meme FD. Yet the evidence Wally posted indicates that conversion amongst US inmates has nothing to do with that. Its far easier to believe that inmates who convert to any religion do so because they have some moment of spiritual awakening, and have a genuine motivation to reform themselves. It really doesn't make sense that inmates would want to take up religion because they want to channel their evil into some satanic cult. An evil person who gets along just fine committing evil without religion has no reason to take up religion in order to continue committing evil.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #33 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 12:53pm

Quote:

We're talking about inmates who convert in prison - not those who are born muslim - which most of these would be.

You are getting a bit anal about controlling the topic Gandalf. Consider this, would you be happy for me to start a new thread on people who are already Muslims ending up in jail? You can't have it both ways. If you want to restrict you threads, it will make the topics covered in existing threads broader. If you want to restrict the topics of existing threads, people will start new ones for the tangents. Unless of course your goal is to shut down discussion altogether. Consider also that I raised this aspect in the opening thread.

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Due in large part to muslim immigrants from Pakistan and India.

Straight into American jails? Or do they end up in jail because they are tinted?

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As for the converts, the article is about islam in the context of the hip-hop culture - which is based around a cult of victimhood and perceived persecution by authority.

Why does that sound so familiar?

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Yes we all know your little meme FD.

It is true though, isn't it? The society Muhammed created was not based on equality. It was the rejection of equality. The pre-Islamic Arab society was far more equal. Islam was a massive retrograde step in this regard.

Quote:

Yet the evidence Wally posted indicates that conversion amongst US inmates has nothing to do with that. Its far easier to believe that inmates who convert to any religion do so because they have some moment of spiritual awakening, and have a genuine motivation to reform themselves.

False dichotomy. There still has to be something appealing about the religion, beyond 'let's awaken your spirit'.

Quote:

It really doesn't make sense that inmates would want to take up religion because they want to channel their evil into some satanic cult. An evil person who gets along just fine committing evil without religion has no reason to take up religion in order to continue committing evil.

This is not what I am arguing.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #34 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:03pm

I think Falah's little fantasy about Australian Aboriginal military superiority is targeted at the same demographic.

aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341787168

It would be nice if it was about equality, but it isn't. It is classic Islam, combining violence, delusions of superiority, and mind boggling stupidity. He explains that aborigines should have been more violent towards European immigrants, not less, and that this would have resulted in more rights and better treatment for them.

Do you think that this sort of nonsense might help to soften up a depressed aboriginal inmate for a spiritual awakening?

Abu made similar arguments, for example insisting that Palestinians should continue firing rockets into Israel because they must keep the war going, because a great Islamic victory is inevitable and just around the corner.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #35 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:31pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

You are getting a bit anal about controlling the topic Gandalf. Consider this, would you be happy for me to start a new thread on people who are already Muslims ending up in jail?

Ok, thats my bad. I got confused seeing Malik's quote about converts.

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background. The largest Australian muslim group is those that hale from Lebanon, who have a long history of poverty and unemployment in the poor areas of western Sydney especially. Many of them gravitate towards drugs and crime and gangs - and then end up in gaol. I have spoken about this before, you may recall.

Its basically kindergarten logic to blame islam for this given what we know about the link between socio-economic conditions and crime. Its about as sensible as blaming budhism for the Vietnamese triads in Cabramatta during the 90s, or communism for the chinese slavery and prostitution rings that run rife in Sydney today.

One good way of debunking your silly theory, which I mentioned to Herbert a while ago (yes thats right, you really are arguing on the same level as Herb), is to look at the high proportion of muslim inmates who are from that low socio-economic environment I just mentioned, and the proportion who are from more affluent muslim communities - who I might add are far more devout than the bros from Bankstown or Punchbowl.

Question worth pondering over - besides the dozen or so prisoners on terror-related charges, how many actual card-carrying quran bashing 5-prayer-a-day muslims are in gaol? Are these people - who really would give a crap about Muhammad's example - overrepresented, or underrepresented in Australian prisons?

Food for thought.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #36 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 2:45pm Who cares what religion you are, if you do the crime you do the time.
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #37 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 4:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background. The largest Australian muslim group is those that hale from Lebanon, who have a long history of poverty and unemployment in the poor areas of western Sydney especially.

What a white-wash.

The Sydney Muslims live in Sydney's inner-suburbs which are the most expensive residential properties to buy or to rent, except for the North Shore leafy suburbs.

By choice they live a lifestyle on the dole, in houses that they pack full with relatives all sucking on some kind of welfare rort. They commit crime to supplement their bludging life-style off the Australian taxpayer ~ the same as the Redfern ghetto-aborigines have being doing since they first collected there in any number.

Dole ... drugs dealing ... jail .... dole ... drugs dealing ... jail ... dole ...

It's a life-style choice that has absolutely nothing to do with 'victimhood', but everything to do with 'hood'.

And all the while, they have the 'gandalfs' out here trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes by presenting a false picture of 'hardship', 'poverty', 'discrimination', 'victimhood', 'racism' and bugger knows what else you'd like to pull out of the hat.

You're as bad as they are for trying to do a bullshit PR job for them.

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« Last Edit: Mar 18^th, 2014 at 4:56pm by Lord Herbert »

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96227 Gender:	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #38 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 6:34pm wally1 wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 2:45pm: Who cares what religion you are, if you do the crime you do the time. Excuse me, you take that back. That’s not the way it works around here, thank you very much. Moderator, ban this one immediately. We won’t have his spineless apologetics here.
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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #39 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 6:47pm

Quote:

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia.

By how much?

Quote:

I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds

There are plenty of Australians from low socioeconomic backgrounds. What makes the Muslims so special? What Australian Muslim group has been treated as badly as the aborigines?

Quote:

One good way of debunking your silly theory, which I mentioned to Herbert a while ago (yes thats right, you really are arguing on the same level as Herb), is to look at the high proportion of muslim inmates who are from that low socio-economic environment I just mentioned, and the proportion who are from more affluent muslim communities - who I might add are far more devout than the bros from Bankstown or Punchbowl.

Have you looked? Or is this like your previous attempts to dismiss census data about Muslims as being statistically insignificant?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96227 Gender:	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #40 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 6:51pm Have you looked, FD?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49241 At my desk.	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #41 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 7:04pm No Karnal. It is Gandalf's story. He can tell it.
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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #42 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 7:29pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

I think Falah's little fantasy about Australian Aboriginal military superiority is targeted at the same demographic.

aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341787168

It would be nice if it was about equality, but it isn't. It is classic Islam, combining violence, delusions of superiority, and mind boggling stupidity. He explains that aborigines should have been more violent towards European immigrants, not less, and that this would have resulted in more rights and better treatment for them.

Do you think that this sort of nonsense might help to soften up a depressed aboriginal inmate for a spiritual awakening?

Abu made similar arguments, for example insisting that Palestinians should continue firing rockets into Israel because they must keep the war going, because a great Islamic victory is inevitable and just around the corner.

The Muslim is using the aborigine as muscle against the white man.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96227 Gender:	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #43 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 7:38pm No no, it’s your story. I read it. Are you saying you don’t know if Muslims are statistically insignificant or not?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #44 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 7:38am

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

Have you looked? Or is this like your previous attempts to dismiss census data about Muslims as being statistically insignificant?

Have I looked to see if prisons are overwhelmed by people - including muslims from poor socio-economic regions? Why yes I have FD. Thats pretty elementary stuff.

But I would have thought that its this claim that needs to be looked at with evidence:

"The suggestion that Islam may appeal more than other religions to pedophiles, thieves and murderers is based on the fact that Muhammed himself was a pedophile, thief and murderer."

- seeing as this thread is about muslims inmates, it might help to establish some kind of evidenced-based link no?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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