Australian Politics Forum - Muslims in our jails

Lord Herbert

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #45 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:10am

Needless to say, for many who convert to Islam it's a protest against white-majority society and is entirely political and racist in nature.

There's also the element of having joined a boutique 'gang' whose common denominator is Islam and its antipathy towards White Western society.

And you get to grow a beard, and wear funny hats, and maybe a caftan ... all 'cool' to the sort of black, borderline imbeciles who end up in jails.

Suddenly, from being losers and social outcasts as habitual criminals, they can now wrap themselves in a cloak of 'respectability', courtesy of Islam.

It's just another version of, well ...

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:19am by Lord Herbert »

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #46 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 12:49pm

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Have I looked to see if prisons are overwhelmed by people - including muslims from poor socio-economic regions? Why yes I have FD. Thats pretty elementary stuff.

Can the large numbers of Muslims in jail be attributed entirely to socio-economic background? Or did you merely find that there was a strong correlation with both poverty and Islam? You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that?

Quote:

But I would have thought that its this claim that needs to be looked at with evidence:

"The suggestion that Islam may appeal more than other religions to pedophiles, thieves and murderers is based on the fact that Muhammed himself was a pedophile, thief and murderer."

- seeing as this thread is about muslims inmates, it might help to establish some kind of evidenced-based link no?

Yes.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #47 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:10pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that?

Sure. Muslims in Australia are about twice as likely to be unemployed and in poverty than non-muslim Australians (source). Longitudinal studies have demonstrated a direct causal link between both unemployment and poverty (some references here under section 'Poverty and Unemployment'.) Other prison populations - most notably Aborigines - provide further support for this link.

It would be silly to suggest that even though:
a) the causal link between poverty and unemployment rates and prison rates is well known
b) muslims are overrepresented in both poverty and unemployment in the general community
c) we don't question the socio-economic factors of Aboriginal high-prison rates

- ...muslims must be overrepresented in Australian prisons for some other unrelated reason that we have no evidence for :p

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Sparky

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #48 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that?

Sure. Muslims in Australia are about twice as likely to be unemployed and in poverty than non-muslim Australians (source). Longitudinal studies have demonstrated a direct causal link between both unemployment and poverty (some references here under section 'Poverty and Unemployment'.) Other prison populations - most notably Aborigines - provide further support for this link.

It would be silly to suggest that even though:
a) the causal link between poverty and unemployment rates and prison rates is well known
b) muslims are overrepresented in both poverty and unemployment in the general community
c) we don't question the socio-economic factors of Aboriginal high-prison rates

- ...muslims must be overrepresented in Australian prisons for some other unrelated reason that we have no evidence for :p

They thought they could get along by doing what they wanted. Don't try at school Achmed, that's Christian brainwashing etc. The Vietnamese arrived earlier than the Muslim Lebanese and they are cruising.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #49 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 4:49pm Sparky wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:27pm: The Vietnamese arrived earlier than the Muslim Lebanese um no.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Sparky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1338 Gender:	Re: Muslims in our jails Reply #50 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 6:13pm polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 4:49pm: Sparky wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:27pm: The Vietnamese arrived earlier than the Muslim Lebanese um no. Both at the same time then. Mid 70's to the 80's. Tell me why the Vietnamese are cruising and the Lebanese Muslims aren't. Don't say racism either.
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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #51 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 6:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that?

Sure. Muslims in Australia are about twice as likely to be unemployed and in poverty than non-muslim Australians (source). Longitudinal studies have demonstrated a direct causal link between both unemployment and poverty (some references here under section 'Poverty and Unemployment'.) Other prison populations - most notably Aborigines - provide further support for this link.

It would be silly to suggest that even though:
a) the causal link between poverty and unemployment rates and prison rates is well known
b) muslims are overrepresented in both poverty and unemployment in the general community
c) we don't question the socio-economic factors of Aboriginal high-prison rates

- ...muslims must be overrepresented in Australian prisons for some other unrelated reason that we have no evidence for :p

You have shown that at least some of it can be attributed to poverty, but not necessarily all. For example, are Muslims over-represented in jails by a factor of 2, or higher?

How do the longitudinal studies reject other possible causes? Do the authors claim a direct causal link, or is this another demonstration of your expertise in statistics?

Why are Muslims poorer?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #52 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 7:41pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 6:52pm:

How do the longitudinal studies reject other possible causes?

They don't, but so far its the only evidence we've seen. If you have any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates (apart from the miniscule number of inmates on terror charges) then by all means, show us. Until then your theory is conjecture.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 6:52pm:

Why are Muslims poorer?

I don't know the exact reason, but there certainly isn't a shortage of literature on the subject - if you're really interested in it FD. You could start with the paper I linked to in my last post.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #53 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:44pm

Quote:

They don't, but so far its the only evidence we've seen.

So how do they demonstrate that it is a causal link?

Quote:

If you have any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates (apart from the miniscule number of inmates on terror charges) then by all means, show us. Until then your theory is conjecture.

Hopefully the guy who married the 12 year old ends up in prison. And the father. And the Imam. Do they count, or were they not devout enough?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #54 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:07pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

So how do they demonstrate that it is a causal link?

As I said, the references are in the link I provided. And its not the only source available. This is hardly a revelation FD, there is a mountain of literature on the subject if you cared to look.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

Hopefully the guy who married the 12 year old ends up in prison. And the father. And the Imam. Do they count

No. Two people don't make a trend. That is what we are talking about right FD - a trend?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #55 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm

Quote:

As I said, the references are in the link I provided. And its not the only source available. This is hardly a revelation FD, there is a mountain of literature on the subject if you cared to look.

Do you know how they established a direct causal link?

Quote:

No. Two people don't make a trend.

I mentioned 3, in addition to the dozen or so that you offered.

Quote:

That is what we are talking about right FD - a trend?

Sorry, I thought you asked me if I had any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates

Do you actually know how high they are?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #56 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:54pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Do you know how they established a direct causal link?

Not in detail, but the link I gave you describes it briefly. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm willing to accept the reference at face value.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Sorry, I thought you asked me if I had any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates

Yes I did, and referencing 3 people who were involved in the only case of islamically sanctioned underrage mariage that we know about does not provide this. Its a bit like saying 3 aborigines who were arrested for fraud is evidence that high aboriginal imprisonment rates are due to white colar crime - ie obviously nonsense.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Do you actually know how high they are?

Not exactly, but the important point is that they are high wouldn't you say? But you're a big boy FD, I'm sure if you cared that much (as opposed to just wanting to nitpick what I present to you), you could learn as much as I know about it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #57 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background.

Its basically kindergarten logic to blame islam for this given what we know about the link between socio-economic conditions and crime.

Muslims appear to top the numbers for being unemployed or in jail, it is a trend that is happening in many non Islamic countries.

If religion plays no part in this why do atheists and those with no religion have the lowest numbers in western jails?

Atheists/No religion also come from lower socio economic backgrounds, why do they appear as the lowest numbers in our jails?

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #58 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:53pm

Quote:

Not in detail, but the link I gave you describes it briefly. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm willing to accept the reference at face value.

Accept what reference? Did someone else tell you that it proves a direct causal link?

Quote:

Yes I did, and referencing 3 people who were involved in the only case of islamically sanctioned underrage mariage that we know about does not provide this. Its a bit like saying 3 aborigines who were arrested for fraud is evidence that high aboriginal imprisonment rates are due to white colar crime - ie obviously nonsense.

If he were not Muslim, he would have been told very quickly that it is illegal. If he had persisted in trying to get someone to conduct a wedding ceremony, he would have been reported to authorities. The causative role of Islam is undeniable, and the crime itself is typical of Islam.

Quote:

Not exactly, but the important point is that they are high wouldn't you say?

Sure, just like I agree with you that Muslims need to take responsibility for the child bride problem and tackle it head on. I don't want you and Karnal to spend the next 50 pages demanding that I prove it.

Quote:

But you're a big boy FD, I'm sure if you cared that much (as opposed to just wanting to nitpick what I present to you), you could learn as much as I know about it

How much do you actually know?

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freediver

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Re: Muslims in our jails
Reply #59 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:11pm

From the grooming gangs thread:

Adamant wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 12:16pm:

These numbers, that Muslims who consist of only 4% of the UK population have 200 times the number of sexual perpetrators than any other group, is only a small number of the actual reality. It only represents cases that have come to light. The more cases that are prosecuted, the higher that number goes.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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