Australian Politics Forum - SA Gerrymander must end

Bam

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #30 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:23am

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:39am:

What you have here is a result of single member electorates and canny campaigning. I also pointed out real gerrymanders that have taken place, people disenfranchised.

I have suggested methods that fix that.

Indeed .. 1962 SA Election - Labor won 54% of the PRIMARY vote, Liberal and Country League 34.5% - Liberal and Country League win election.

Now THAT was a real gerrymander - the Playmander.

The problem for the Liberals in SA is that their voters tend to be concentrated in safe seats. Packing of voters is a gerrymander technique, but if it happens because the voters themselves actually choose to pack themselves then it is difficult to devise a fair system of single-member electorates that can overcome this.

Perhaps it's time for SA to change to multi-member electorates. Safe seats for either party will tend to become part of seats that elect multiple members of that party, and people would have more choice of candidates. The downside is the need for more governments to govern in a coalition because majority governments will become relatively rare.

Current system: 47 single-member seats, 22 senators elected state wide with 11 contesting each election.

My proposals:
(1) 48 members elected in 8 seats returning 6 members each, 22 or 24 senators elected the same way they are now.
(2) 45 members elected in 9 seats returning 5 members each, 22 senators elected the same way they are now.

Quote:

OH—one other suggestion. Tell your idiot party that attacking independents is not a good way to go because at some stage you might need them.

In the federal sphere the Rudd govt had treated Windsor and Oakeshott with respect from day one. Guess which party these two fine Independents supported?

In SA the position is the same. Brock and Such will support Labor because unlike the Libs Labor never denigrated or attacked them. So eat your lemon and reflect why you are doing so.

The Liberals have been shooting themselves in the foot a lot lately regarding independents. They need to treat them with more respect. Rather than going around wailing loudly that the independent is occupying a seat instead of a Coalition member, they should adopt the attitude that at least the seat isn't occupied by a Labor member. It will work so much better in the event that the Liberals need to curry the independent's favour.

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #31 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:00pm

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 9:17am:

cods wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:56am:

do lefties still believe we would be better off without the GST??..

I cant believe it,... Grin

imagine what wholesale tax would be by now. Roll Eyes

...and the GST hasnt changed in 10 years..

A 10% consumption tax depresses consumption by 10%. Those on lowest incomes got no compensation from little Johnny, all that went to those on huge incomes. So now when the GFC has depressed the economy the GST is making it 10% worse.

Then the simian wants his stupid PPL implemented, another HUGE hit to low income earners and those relying at least partly on investments after retirement will also find a hit to their income as well as a signifcant rise in cost of living.

Why can’t any of you loony toons rightarded THINK?

except that history shows that it DIDNT repress consumption at all and low incomes WERE compensated by higher welfare payments and lower income taxes.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #32 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:01pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 9:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:36am:

Do you want a labor govt or a democratically elected one?

South Australia has been blessed with BOTH - under our
Westminster System

Perhaps - JUST in this (SA) instance - you would like to see
THAT
changed ?

yes it has had both, but not at the same time. if you were even capable of thinking you wouldn't be so biased.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #33 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:06pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 10:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:38am:

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:57pm:

•In the 1998 federal election John Howard of the Liberal Party ran against the Labor Party’s Kim Beazley.

Loser Kim Beazley
received

5,630,409

votes while the winner
John Howard
, owing to the gerrymander effect, lead his party to victory and government with the grand total of

5,413,431

This was also election Howard claimed his "mandate" - or "referendum" - on his

GST

Even though MORE people voted AGAINST it - than FOR it

WHERE was the "outrage" THEN ?

( ... and bear in mind, this was a "fork in the road" FEDERAL ELECTION - and "referendum" if you like - on ANOTHER new way to tax us all
As opposed to who will lead the"state of insignificance")

and like every other hypocritical leftie you consider that any time 'you' were denied power by a SLIGHT 2PP discrepancy that makes every other event - even a massive gerrymander - okay.

do you even have a principle bone in your body? All you do is beg the question of why every liberal govt doesn't immediately institute a massive gerrymander in their own favour. AFter all, you don't seem to have any trouble with the concept.

A principle stands whether its 1 vote or a million votes.

Its not a "well only if you get over x amount"

Do you believe it or you don't.

And just as you accuse everyone else of, you believe when it is in your favour & pull out every excuse when it doesn't

well if that is your stand then I guess there really isn't any point in debating it with you, is it? I suppose you think Hawke stole the election in 1990 too?

The more you post the more I realise that you don't actually understand principle at all. 2PP is an APPROXIMATION of the votes not actual votes as pretty much most people understand. The worst part is that there is simply no way you will ever admit that the SA Libs have been ripped off. They could get get 60/40 or even 80/20 and stay in opposition and your position wouldn't change. As long as howard has won in 1998 with a sliver more of the 2PP then you will excuse any result.

I REALLY GENUINELY HOPE that the current liberal govts Australia-wide impose a gerrymander that denies labor its rightful right to govt in the future just so I can laugh at your 'unfair' arguments in the future.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #34 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:08pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 10:21am:

The SA result, regardless, was VITAL for any future of renewable energy in this country

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/3627068-3x2-940x627.jpg

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 9:53am:

ANYONE with the slightest concern for the environment would epitomise

"HYPOCRITE"

- were they not praying for a clear Labor Government return to control and power

South Australia and the ACT - under Labor - are the country's last enclaves and hopes for a chance and future for SUSTAINABLE, RENEWABLE ENERGY

Wind farms churn out more than half SA's electricity during wild weather

27 Aug 2013

A record amount of wind energy generated in southern Australia last week demonstrates the need for more investment in renewable technology.

In recent wild weather, wind turbines produced almost half of South Australia's electricity, while 10 per cent of Victoria's energy was delivered by wind farms.

The Clean Energy Council says wind farms powered the equivalent of 2.3 million homes nationwide.

Conservation council chief executive Tim Kelly says South Australia is on track to achieve its 2020 renewable energy target of 33 per cent.

Mr Kelly says wind farms are a proven power source and the recent result should prompt more ambitious renewable energy targets.

"South Australia can make electricity when the wind blows. We can also make electricity when the sun shines and we can also expand in hot rocks and other renewable supplies but we've got so much wind electricity established now that during these periods at this time of the year in particular we're generating lots of wind power," he said.

"Where will the next 30 per cent of renewable electricity come from in South Australia by say 2030?

"That's going to take a different thinking where we connect to the great wind resources on Eyre Peninsula and we've also got these great solar resources and projects like the Repower Port Augusta large-scale concentrated solar thermal power plant."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-27/wind-energy-generation-record/4914266

and here is me thinking elections were about the right of voters to choose their own government!!

How foolish. To a leftie, elections are impediments to their goals and democracy nothing more than a tool to use and ultimately dismantle in their pursuit of dictatorship.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #35 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:10pm

Bam wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:23am:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:39am:

What you have here is a result of single member electorates and canny campaigning. I also pointed out real gerrymanders that have taken place, people disenfranchised.

I have suggested methods that fix that.

Indeed .. 1962 SA Election - Labor won 54% of the PRIMARY vote, Liberal and Country League 34.5% - Liberal and Country League win election.

Now THAT was a real gerrymander - the Playmander.

The problem for the Liberals in SA is that their voters tend to be concentrated in safe seats. Packing of voters is a gerrymander technique, but if it happens because the voters themselves actually choose to pack themselves then it is difficult to devise a fair system of single-member electorates that can overcome this.

Perhaps it's time for SA to change to multi-member electorates. Safe seats for either party will tend to become part of seats that elect multiple members of that party, and people would have more choice of candidates. The downside is the need for more governments to govern in a coalition because majority governments will become relatively rare.

Current system: 47 single-member seats, 22 senators elected state wide with 11 contesting each election.

My proposals:
(1) 48 members elected in 8 seats returning 6 members each, 22 or 24 senators elected the same way they are now.
(2) 45 members elected in 9 seats returning 5 members each, 22 senators elected the same way they are now.

Quote:

OH—one other suggestion. Tell your idiot party that attacking independents is not a good way to go because at some stage you might need them.

In the federal sphere the Rudd govt had treated Windsor and Oakeshott with respect from day one. Guess which party these two fine Independents supported?

In SA the position is the same. Brock and Such will support Labor because unlike the Libs Labor never denigrated or attacked them. So eat your lemon and reflect why you are doing so.

The Liberals have been shooting themselves in the foot a lot lately regarding independents. They need to treat them with more respect. Rather than going around wailing loudly that the independent is occupying a seat instead of a Coalition member, they should adopt the attitude that at least the seat isn't occupied by a Labor member. It will work so much better in the event that the Liberals need to curry the independent's favour.

and unlike you, I am quite happy to say that that was unfair and unethical. But in your mind, a gerrymander is only unfair when it negatively impacts you.

You are just a hypocrite.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bam

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #36 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:24pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:10pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:23am:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:39am:

What you have here is a result of single member electorates and canny campaigning. I also pointed out real gerrymanders that have taken place, people disenfranchised.

I have suggested methods that fix that.

Indeed .. 1962 SA Election - Labor won 54% of the PRIMARY vote, Liberal and Country League 34.5% - Liberal and Country League win election.

Now THAT was a real gerrymander - the Playmander.

The problem for the Liberals in SA is that their voters tend to be concentrated in safe seats. Packing of voters is a gerrymander technique, but if it happens because the voters themselves actually choose to pack themselves then it is difficult to devise a fair system of single-member electorates that can overcome this.

Perhaps it's time for SA to change to multi-member electorates. Safe seats for either party will tend to become part of seats that elect multiple members of that party, and people would have more choice of candidates. The downside is the need for more governments to govern in a coalition because majority governments will become relatively rare.

Current system: 47 single-member seats, 22 senators elected state wide with 11 contesting each election.

My proposals:
(1) 48 members elected in 8 seats returning 6 members each, 22 or 24 senators elected the same way they are now.
(2) 45 members elected in 9 seats returning 5 members each, 22 senators elected the same way they are now.

Quote:

OH—one other suggestion. Tell your idiot party that attacking independents is not a good way to go because at some stage you might need them.

In the federal sphere the Rudd govt had treated Windsor and Oakeshott with respect from day one. Guess which party these two fine Independents supported?

In SA the position is the same. Brock and Such will support Labor because unlike the Libs Labor never denigrated or attacked them. So eat your lemon and reflect why you are doing so.

The Liberals have been shooting themselves in the foot a lot lately regarding independents. They need to treat them with more respect. Rather than going around wailing loudly that the independent is occupying a seat instead of a Coalition member, they should adopt the attitude that at least the seat isn't occupied by a Labor member. It will work so much better in the event that the Liberals need to curry the independent's favour.

and unlike you, I am quite happy to say that that was unfair and unethical. But in your mind, a gerrymander is only unfair when it negatively impacts you.

If that was true, why am I suggesting alternatives to the current system?

Quote:

You are just a hypocrite.

You are a liar.

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St George of the Garden

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #37 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:26pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:00pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 9:17am:

cods wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:56am:

do lefties still believe we would be better off without the GST??..

I cant believe it,... Grin

imagine what wholesale tax would be by now. Roll Eyes

...and the GST hasnt changed in 10 years..

A 10% consumption tax depresses consumption by 10%. Those on lowest incomes got no compensation from little Johnny, all that went to those on huge incomes. So now when the GFC has depressed the economy the GST is making it 10% worse.

Then the simian wants his stupid PPL implemented, another HUGE hit to low income earners and those relying at least partly on investments after retirement will also find a hit to their income as well as a signifcant rise in cost of living.

Why can’t any of you loony toons rightarded THINK?

except that history shows that it DIDNT repress consumption at all and low incomes WERE compensated by higher welfare payments and lower income taxes.

No, the lower paid were not compensated, e.g. a clerk I employed on, IIRC, $550/week got $11 tax cut. Not enough by a long shot. In addition the States kept some taxes they were supposed to abolish. The GST was a way of funneling money from the poor to the rich, that is why it is still hurting the economy.

Consumption esp housing went flat after the stupid GST was brought in so little Johnny did one of his tyoical terrified backflips with pike and announced the $15K FHOG. This FHOG is still pricing Gen X out of a house. Once the real estate boom started Howard & Costello kep pumping money into the private sector, inflating the boom we are still paying for now.

Try using some facts in your posts.

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #38 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:27pm

Bam wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:24pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:10pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:23am:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:39am:

What you have here is a result of single member electorates and canny campaigning. I also pointed out real gerrymanders that have taken place, people disenfranchised.

I have suggested methods that fix that.

Indeed .. 1962 SA Election - Labor won 54% of the PRIMARY vote, Liberal and Country League 34.5% - Liberal and Country League win election.

Now THAT was a real gerrymander - the Playmander.

The problem for the Liberals in SA is that their voters tend to be concentrated in safe seats. Packing of voters is a gerrymander technique, but if it happens because the voters themselves actually choose to pack themselves then it is difficult to devise a fair system of single-member electorates that can overcome this.

Perhaps it's time for SA to change to multi-member electorates. Safe seats for either party will tend to become part of seats that elect multiple members of that party, and people would have more choice of candidates. The downside is the need for more governments to govern in a coalition because majority governments will become relatively rare.

Current system: 47 single-member seats, 22 senators elected state wide with 11 contesting each election.

My proposals:
(1) 48 members elected in 8 seats returning 6 members each, 22 or 24 senators elected the same way they are now.
(2) 45 members elected in 9 seats returning 5 members each, 22 senators elected the same way they are now.

Quote:

OH—one other suggestion. Tell your idiot party that attacking independents is not a good way to go because at some stage you might need them.

In the federal sphere the Rudd govt had treated Windsor and Oakeshott with respect from day one. Guess which party these two fine Independents supported?

In SA the position is the same. Brock and Such will support Labor because unlike the Libs Labor never denigrated or attacked them. So eat your lemon and reflect why you are doing so.

The Liberals have been shooting themselves in the foot a lot lately regarding independents. They need to treat them with more respect. Rather than going around wailing loudly that the independent is occupying a seat instead of a Coalition member, they should adopt the attitude that at least the seat isn't occupied by a Labor member. It will work so much better in the event that the Liberals need to curry the independent's favour.

and unlike you, I am quite happy to say that that was unfair and unethical. But in your mind, a gerrymander is only unfair when it negatively impacts you.

If that was true, why am I suggesting alternatives to the current system?

Quote:

You are just a hypocrite.

You are a liar.

because to date you have NOT stated that the situation in SA in intrinsically unfair or that the Libs should be in power. Can you say that UNEQUIVOCABLY?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #39 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 5:20pm bump
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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #40 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 5:24pm

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 1:00pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 9:17am:

cods wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:56am:

do lefties still believe we would be better off without the GST??..

I cant believe it,... Grin

imagine what wholesale tax would be by now. Roll Eyes

...and the GST hasnt changed in 10 years..

A 10% consumption tax depresses consumption by 10%. Those on lowest incomes got no compensation from little Johnny, all that went to those on huge incomes. So now when the GFC has depressed the economy the GST is making it 10% worse.

Then the simian wants his stupid PPL implemented, another HUGE hit to low income earners and those relying at least partly on investments after retirement will also find a hit to their income as well as a signifcant rise in cost of living.

Why can’t any of you loony toons rightarded THINK?

except that history shows that it DIDNT repress consumption at all and low incomes WERE compensated by higher welfare payments and lower income taxes.

No, the lower paid were not compensated, e.g. a clerk I employed on, IIRC, $550/week got $11 tax cut. Not enough by a long shot. In addition the States kept some taxes they were supposed to abolish. The GST was a way of funneling money from the poor to the rich, that is why it is still hurting the economy.

Consumption esp housing went flat after the stupid GST was brought in so little Johnny did one of his tyoical terrified backflips with pike and announced the $15K FHOG. This FHOG is still pricing Gen X out of a house. Once the real estate boom started Howard & Costello kep pumping money into the private sector, inflating the boom we are still paying for now.

Try using some facts in your posts.

your memory is wrong like so much else you post. Tax cuts compensated for the GST. I actually don't believe your recollection at all. and the taxes the states didn't repeal at first WERE repealed after Costello threatened to withhold state funding so that is wrong as well.

a little fact you miss (you miss a lot) is that there was a mild global recession around this time as well and Australia didn't go into recession.

but the most telling indictment of your fantasy is that NO ONE AGREES. there is precisely no one proposing to remove the GST and not because it is hard but rather because... it works. well.

really your post was almost entirely lies or rubbish.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38811 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #41 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 5:25pm St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:08pm: Love the rightarded outrage tho. Govts don’t draw the seat boundaries, the AEC do, unlike in Joh’s day. Govt on 19% of the vote? 29%.
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #42 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 5:33pm Aussie wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 5:25pm: St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:08pm: Love the rightarded outrage tho. Govts don’t draw the seat boundaries, the AEC do, unlike in Joh’s day. Govt on 19% of the vote? 29%. Labor in SA didn't get a whole lot more.
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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #43 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:03pm Well, Labor in SA got 1 more seat than the Libs.
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #44 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:47pm St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:03pm: Well, Labor in SA got 1 more seat than the Libs. as discussed at length, the entire point of the thread which you, as usual, didn't get.
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