Australian Politics Forum - SA Gerrymander must end

longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #75 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:28am

Bam wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 9:51am:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 8:25am:

Bam wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 10:24pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:15pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 8:01pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:57pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:47pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:03pm:

Well, Labor in SA got 1 more seat than the Libs.

as discussed at length, the entire point of the thread which you, as usual, didn't get.

Not only that, it is only a gerrymander if seat boundaries were drawn up by the govt to deliberately affect the outcome of the election unfairly.

It is the independent AEC that draws the boundary. No gerrymander.

gerrymanders don't have to be deliberate. a gerrymander is by definition a system that denies government to the party that wins a significant majority REGARDLESS of who put it in place.

No, a gerrymander is deliberate and is by definition:
Quote:

In the process of setting electoral districts, gerrymandering is a practice that attempts to establish a political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating district boundaries to create partisan advantaged districts.

And that is an important point. Gerrymanders are intentionally engineered, by definition.

Meet the first Gerrymander. This is the map of an American electoral district that was created in 1812, drawn as a winged monster in a political cartoon:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/The_Gerry-Mander_Edit....

Here is a particularly infamous example - a congressional district shaped like a pair of earmuffs.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Illinois_District_4_2004.png

These were not created accidentally.

The Playmander and Bjelkemander both had a massive overweight of rural electorates. Neither was created accidentally.

There is no such thing as an "accidental" gerrymander.

what arrogant nonsense is that? if a gerrymander is a system that denies govt to the rightful and significant winner of an election and it has occurred without any party's deliberate efforts then it is accidental by definition.

A gerrymander is NOT this. Stop making up crap.

A gerrymander - BY DEFINITION - is a DELIBERATE attempt to manipulate the electoral system to produce a particular outcome. There is no such thing as an accidental gerrymander.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:

Gerrymandering is a practice that attempts to establish a political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating district boundaries to create partisan advantaged districts.

For it to be a gerrymander, there has to be wilful manipulation. If there's no wilful manipulation, it is not a gerrymander.

Quote:

you will note that I have not blamed labor for this Gerrymander. I have criticised them soley for refusing to admit that it exists or that it is wrong. but they did not put it in place and yet it still exists.

They can't admit it exists because IT IS NOT A GERRYMANDER!

ah the appeal to Wikipedia... the refuge of the intellectually bereft. you can be both stubborn and stupid at the same time. a gerrymander CAN be accidental and denying it makes you look stupid in view of the clear and obvious gerrymander that exists in SA now. and neither party made it happen.

it is an accidental gerrymander. a biased system.

Wikipedia.... you should be banned from this forum for relying on it just as you would have (and have) on your long-deparated and not-remembered dailywire.

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #76 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:40am

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:17am:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 9:07am:

[quote author=GeorgeH link=1395306054/64#64 date=1395441140]I deny it is a deliberate gerrymander.

The way Lib votes are clumped single member seats mean they do need to get a whole lot of votes.

The Indies won’t support them because:

1. After allowing for a speaker there will be 23 on each side of the chamber—unworkable

2. The Libs have a nasty habit of attacking Indies. Tell them to stop—very counterproductive

If you add the Indies votes to the Labor vote—does that give the ALP-Indie “coalition” a majority of votes?

If you want to change things single member seats are the stumbling block. What mechanism do you propose to put in its place? The AEC will not draw boundaries to give Libs a win.[/quote]

the AEC is responsible for drawing boundaries that allow the number of seats the match the number of votes. it is that simple and yes, in this case that would mean boundaries that would ensure a liberal win which seems fair since the electorate wants that as well.

There are restrictions on what the AEC can do, like state seats fitting within boundaries of federal seats.

No—to get a more proportionate result you need a more proportionate type of voting, like Hare Clarke?

the AEC is not limited to how it can draw boundaries as you say. but at least you are finally admitted that the SA result is biased.

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Frances

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #77 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #78 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:55am

Frances wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am:

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

and if that were so it would be the AEC's responsibility to redraw boundaries to take that into account. the AEC's job is to ensure that the votes translate into seats in equal ratio as becomes true representative democracy,

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buzzanddidj

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #79 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 11:48am

Frances wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am:

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

THIS, is EXACTLY the situation
This is NOT a "gerrymander" - as claimed by Longweeked

A "gerrymander" is when a, say, conservative government draws up electoral boundaries to give conservative electorates very small populations - and working class electorates very large population

This practice had the effect of creating MANY MORE probable conservative electorates than there fairly SHOULD have been

It was THIS style of "gerrymander" that allowed the corrupt Bjelke-Peterson dynasty to hold on to its dictatorship for as long as it did

NOWADAYS,
electorate numbers and borders are are under the scrutinised monitoring a the AEC - not of the government of the day - ensuring all electorates are as close as possible on number, as is practically possible

( ... this is the reason you see minor "tweaking" of electoral boundaries prior to elections)

* ... from memory, I think the federal target is 30,000 - with no more than 1,000 each way
( ... these figures may not be true, but you get the picture)

What Longweekend is calling for is PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION - where a government is formed by the OVERALL STATE-WIDE VOTE - and not by the total number of seats won

( ... but ONLY for THIS election, mind you)

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longweekend58

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #80 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 12:38pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 11:48am:

Frances wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am:

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

THIS, is EXACTLY the situation
This is NOT a "gerrymander" - as claimed by Longweeked

A "gerrymander" is when a, say, conservative government draws up electoral boundaries to give conservative electorates very small populations - and working class electorates very large population

This practice had the effect of creating MANY MORE probable conservative electorates than there fairly SHOULD have been

It was THIS style of "gerrymander" that allowed the corrupt Bjelke-Peterson dynasty to hold on to its dictatorship for as long as it did

NOWADAYS,
electorate numbers and borders are are under the scrutinised monitoring a the AEC - not of the government of the day - ensuring all electorates are as close as possible on number, as is practically possible

( ... this is the reason you see minor "tweaking" of electoral boundaries prior to elections)

* ... from memory, I think the federal target is 30,000 - with no more than 1,000 each way
( ... these figures may not be true, but you get the picture)

What Longweekend is calling for is PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION - where a government is formed by the OVERALL STATE-WIDE VOTE - and not by the total number of seats won

( ... but ONLY for THIS election, mind you)

how biased of you to ignore the labor gerrymanders which are just as plentiful.

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Bam

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #81 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 1:58pm

Frances wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am:

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

I think this may be what is going on, but I have not yet seen any analysis that confirms or refutes this theory.

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Bam

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #82 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 2:21pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 11:48am:

What Longweekend is calling for is PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION - where a government is formed by the OVERALL STATE-WIDE VOTE - and not by the total number of seats won

I think this is inaccurate. What longweekend58 actually wants so far as I can tell is for a party that wins a majority of the 2PP vote to win the majority of seats as much as possible, which in my view is reasonable if it applies equally to both sides of politics. He has every right to feel aggrieved that the Liberals didn't win despite receiving a majority of the 2PP vote.

He is incorrect though as to why. There is no intentional allocation of electorates to keep the Liberals out of power, any more than there was no intentional allocation of upper house seats in Victoria to give the Coalition an almost uninterrupted upper house majority for 50 years while they only formed government for 37 of those years. It is simply an artifact of the voting system.

It took a massive Labor landslide win in 2002 to break the Coalition's hold on the upper house in Victoria and give a much-needed Labor majority. Labor promptly reformed the Victorian upper house to make it more proportional. When the Liberals get back in in SA they will also be addressing the issue of seat allocation (if Labor don't beat them to it). A fair system for South Australia - nine electorates, five members elected from each, Hare-Clark proportional, equal number of voters in each electorate.

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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #83 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 2:30pm Multi–member electorates would give “fairer” results yet still allow representation.
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Lobo

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #84 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 2:44pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:55am:

Frances wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am:

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

and if that were so it would be the AEC's responsibility to redraw boundaries to take that into account. the

AEC's job is to ensure that the votes translate into seats in equal ratio

as becomes true representative democracy,

Quote:

For the House of Representatives each State and Territory is divided into electoral divisions. The number of these divisions is determined by population. To ensure equal representation, the boundaries of these divisions have to be redrawn or redistributed periodically. AEC.

Now, which is it you mean, longy?

'Equal ratio' by voting intention, or equal ratio by population??

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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #85 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 2:47pm The AEC is not supposed to take into consideration voting intentions! I think LW is about at the stage he will disappear for a while.
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Lobo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7407 Sydney Gender:	Re: SA Gerrymander must end Reply #86 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 2:54pm St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 2:47pm: The AEC is not supposed to take into consideration voting intentions! I think LW is about at the stage he will disappear for a while. Exactly!! That is why I wanted longy's clarification.... Be interesting to to see what spin he can put on this.
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St George of the Garden

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #87 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 3:01pm

SA has 12 federal electorates—each one of those could elect 4 members on a proportional basis, 4 MPs representing the one seat, that should see a much closer congruence between state seats and votes. All seats would have at least one Lib or one Lab MPs so voters of either persuasion could go see an MP about whatever he needed to see an MP about.

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buzzanddidj

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #88 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 3:59pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 12:38pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 11:48am:

Frances wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50am:

Is it really a Gerrymander, or is it just the unavoidable result of having almost all the Liberal supporters living in large numbers in a few select areas? I'm not sure about South Australia, but in NSW there are quite a few electorates where the Liberal vote is ridiculously high just because a lot of Liberals live there.....

THIS, is EXACTLY the situation
This is NOT a "gerrymander" - as claimed by Longweeked

A "gerrymander" is when a, say, conservative government draws up electoral boundaries to give conservative electorates very small populations - and working class electorates very large population

This practice had the effect of creating MANY MORE probable conservative electorates than there fairly SHOULD have been

It was THIS style of "gerrymander" that allowed the corrupt Bjelke-Peterson dynasty to hold on to its dictatorship for as long as it did

NOWADAYS,
electorate numbers and borders are are under the scrutinised monitoring a the AEC - not of the government of the day - ensuring all electorates are as close as possible on number, as is practically possible

( ... this is the reason you see minor "tweaking" of electoral boundaries prior to elections)

* ... from memory, I think the federal target is 30,000 - with no more than 1,000 each way
( ... these figures may not be true, but you get the picture)

What Longweekend is calling for is PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION - where a government is formed by the OVERALL STATE-WIDE VOTE - and not by the total number of seats won

( ... but ONLY for THIS election, mind you)

how biased of you to ignore the labor gerrymanders which are just as plentiful.

There could and would be NO "gerrymander" TODAY in EITHER case

As I pointed out - THESE days - electorate number and boundaries are scrutinised and corrected prior to every election to ensure
a "gerrymander" CAN NOT - and DOES NOT - occur

... and I referred to the
Bjelke-Peterson
example - as the best and most notorious example

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TheGreenLight

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Re: SA Gerrymander must end
Reply #89 - Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm

I agree that something needs to be done in SA, that the Liberals didn't win with 53% of the two party preferred vote is a joke.The Tasmanian system looks great to me. The three parties won pretty much exactly the amount of seats that correspinded to their votes. Same as the ACT in 2012, who have the same system. Something like that would be good everywhere across the nation, much fairer for all parties, and voters.

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