Australian Politics Forum - Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.

Bam

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #45 - Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 12:27pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 11:04am:

* Abolish public holiday penalty rates except for Christmas Day, Good Friday, and ANZAC Day before 12 noon.

Why just those particular days?

Why is Christmas Day more important than New Year's Day or the Queen's Birthday, for example?

These are the most important public holidays. Nevertheless, you raise a fair point. The issue of penalty rates and public holidays merits more in-depth discussion.

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers. Reply #46 - Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm I've not heard anyone mention (apart from myself) the value to the employer of, on the one hand, a raw 18yo with, on the other hand, a 21 or 25 or 40yo with runs on the board. Of course there are individual differences.
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Dsmithy70

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #47 - Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:48pm

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

I've not heard anyone mention (apart from myself) the value to the employer of, on the one hand, a raw 18yo with, on the other hand, a 21 or 25 or 40yo with runs on the board.
Of course there are individual differences.

Well perhaps we are coming at this from the wrong angle

"How many years have you worked in the Industry?" should be the question, not "how old are you"

0 to 3 years - junior rates (75% of award)

3 to 6 years - assistant rates (85% of award)

6+years - Full award rate.

Problem solved

Employers get what they pay for

People gain experience

People are rewarded for time served not just age.

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REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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Bam

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #48 - Mar 24^th, 2014 at 8:03pm

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

I've not heard anyone mention (apart from myself) the value to the employer of, on the one hand, a raw 18yo with, on the other hand, a 21 or 25 or 40yo with runs on the board.
Of course there are individual differences.

Do employers recruit 40 year olds for entry-level positions?

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Bam

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #49 - Mar 24^th, 2014 at 8:05pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

I've not heard anyone mention (apart from myself) the value to the employer of, on the one hand, a raw 18yo with, on the other hand, a 21 or 25 or 40yo with runs on the board.
Of course there are individual differences.

Well perhaps we are coming at this from the wrong angle

"How many years have you worked in the Industry?" should be the question, not "how old are you"

0 to 3 years - junior rates (75% of award)

3 to 6 years - assistant rates (85% of award)

6+years - Full award rate.

Problem solved

Employers get what they pay for

People gain experience

People are rewarded for time served not just age.

You've nailed it.

Pay based on experience, not age.

Age-based pay is as discriminatory as gender-based pay or not hiring people over 45.

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Peter Freedman

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #50 - Mar 24^th, 2014 at 8:34pm

Bam wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 11:04am:

If we are looking at pay rates for young workers, we need to look at it in the broader context of the system as a whole.

At the moment, young people do not receive equal pay for equal work. This is an anachronism from the days when young people still lived at home with parents, so their costs were lower. There cannot be real justification in retaining this when a lot of people live away from home such as full-time students.

On the other hand, weekend penalty rates are also an anachronism from a time when shops did not open on Sundays and Saturdays were always half-day trading if they opened. Most retailers did not pay these penalty rates. Young people receive many of these penalty rates - they have to, if they are to earn enough to live.

If we are to change these rules, we must change both sets of rules or neither of them. Changing one set of rules and leaving the other alone is unfair to the disadvantaged party.

Some changes to consider - this is a package deal:
* Abolish weekend penalty rates
* Abolish public holiday penalty rates except for Christmas Day, Good Friday, and ANZAC Day before 12 noon.
* Give all staff the legal right to refuse to work on weekends or any public holiday without having to give a reason provided they give sufficient advance notice so rosters can be scheduled
* Abolish age-based pay discounts

An alternative to abolishing age-based pay discounts completely is to scale them back and offer some government concessions to people under 21 who are living away from home such as discounted public transport and discounted car registration. If the government insists on imposing a reduced income on the young, they should also reduce their costs.

Look at the practicalities of this.

Imagine a business which needs four people to run it. The boss wants to open weekends or statutory holidays.

Three of the staff agree, but one holds out. The atmosphere in the workplace would become intolerable.

Sooner or later, the employer would find some excuse to get rid of the worker and employ someone prepared to be more flexible.

Penalty rates recognise the inconvenience of working unsociable hours. They should stay.

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Bam

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #51 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 11:40am

Peter Freedman wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 8:34pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 11:04am:

If we are looking at pay rates for young workers, we need to look at it in the broader context of the system as a whole.

At the moment, young people do not receive equal pay for equal work. This is an anachronism from the days when young people still lived at home with parents, so their costs were lower. There cannot be real justification in retaining this when a lot of people live away from home such as full-time students.

On the other hand, weekend penalty rates are also an anachronism from a time when shops did not open on Sundays and Saturdays were always half-day trading if they opened. Most retailers did not pay these penalty rates. Young people receive many of these penalty rates - they have to, if they are to earn enough to live.

If we are to change these rules, we must change both sets of rules or neither of them. Changing one set of rules and leaving the other alone is unfair to the disadvantaged party.

Some changes to consider - this is a package deal:
* Abolish weekend penalty rates
* Abolish public holiday penalty rates except for Christmas Day, Good Friday, and ANZAC Day before 12 noon.
* Give all staff the legal right to refuse to work on weekends or any public holiday without having to give a reason provided they give sufficient advance notice so rosters can be scheduled
* Abolish age-based pay discounts

An alternative to abolishing age-based pay discounts completely is to scale them back and offer some government concessions to people under 21 who are living away from home such as discounted public transport and discounted car registration. If the government insists on imposing a reduced income on the young, they should also reduce their costs.

Look at the practicalities of this.

Imagine a business which needs four people to run it. The boss wants to open weekends or statutory holidays.

Three of the staff agree, but one holds out. The atmosphere in the workplace would become intolerable.

Sooner or later, the employer would find some excuse to get rid of the worker and employ someone prepared to be more flexible.

Penalty rates recognise the inconvenience of working unsociable hours. They should stay.

Your example is unrealistic. It's not really going to be the problem you claim.

If someone doesn't want to work on weekends (perhaps they have kids to look after) they shouldn't be forced to do so. Plenty of other people out there would be quite willing to take on some casual work at that time. Labour hire companies can also help out.

If it's a question of insufficient pay, the business can offer more money.

If a business proprietor can't find staff to cover all the shifts, they are really inept at running a business.

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bogarde73

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #52 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 12:03pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

I've not heard anyone mention (apart from myself) the value to the employer of, on the one hand, a raw 18yo with, on the other hand, a 21 or 25 or 40yo with runs on the board.
Of course there are individual differences.

Well perhaps we are coming at this from the wrong angle

"How many years have you worked in the Industry?" should be the question, not "how old are you"

0 to 3 years - junior rates (75% of award)

3 to 6 years - assistant rates (85% of award)

6+years - Full award rate.

Problem solved

Employers get what they pay for

People gain experience

People are rewarded for time served not just age.

Maybe we are. Problem solved.
But I think there is too much of a spread in your cohorts.

0 to 2

2 to 4

4+

When you think about it, what's age got to do with economic or productive worth?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #53 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 1:37pm

Bam wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 12:27pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 11:04am:

* Abolish public holiday penalty rates except for Christmas Day, Good Friday, and ANZAC Day before 12 noon.

Why just those particular days?

Why is Christmas Day more important than New Year's Day or the Queen's Birthday, for example?

These are the most important public holidays. Nevertheless, you raise a fair point. The issue of penalty rates and public holidays merits more in-depth discussion.

"Most important" to you, perhaps.

Christmas Day and Easter mean absolutely nothing to me.

Personally, I'm more interested in New Year's Day.

It's all subjective, thus, all Public Holidays should be regarded as equal.

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Bam

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Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers.
Reply #54 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 3:38pm

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

I've not heard anyone mention (apart from myself) the value to the employer of, on the one hand, a raw 18yo with, on the other hand, a 21 or 25 or 40yo with runs on the board.
Of course there are individual differences.

Well perhaps we are coming at this from the wrong angle

"How many years have you worked in the Industry?" should be the question, not "how old are you"

0 to 3 years - junior rates (75% of award)

3 to 6 years - assistant rates (85% of award)

6+years - Full award rate.

Problem solved

Employers get what they pay for

People gain experience

People are rewarded for time served not just age.

Maybe we are. Problem solved.
But I think there is too much of a spread in your cohorts.

0 to 2

2 to 4

4+

When you think about it, what's age got to do with economic or productive worth?

Agreed - most people leave school at around 18. With a 6-year wait, someone that gets a job after leaving school at 18 would be 24 before they are earning the full rate.

Someone that changes career twice in their life would spend 18 years of their working life working for below the full rate.

No way.

Even 4 years is too long for some lines of work. If it's a basic job, they should be on the full rate once the probation period ends (up to 12 months).

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Dsmithy70 Gold Member Offline ire futuis vobismetipsis Posts: 13147 Newy Gender:	Re: Will Paying Young People More Crush Retailers. Reply #55 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 3:55pm bogarde73 wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 12:03pm: 0 to 2 2 to 4 4+ Fair point, my apprenticeship went for 4 years so yeah 4 years your qualified & receive full remuneration. Now if only those with the actual ability to fix these issues would hire us
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