Australian Politics Forum - Islam and equality

Yadda

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #15 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 5:37pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 2:26pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 1:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2014 at 10:51am:

Ladies and gentlemen, Yadda has serious competition.

Yadda paraphrases Karnal;

More and more people are becoming aware of what moslems and the moslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries are 'about'.

More and more people are becoming aware of the blatant deception and the blatant lies [of moslems]...

But, Y, all we've read here over the last few weeks is blatant deception and fibs about the Muselman.....

Just tell it like it is.

K,

Here is an honest moslem [honest! Tongue

]...

TAJI MUSTAFA

Quote:

LEIGH SALES: You represent a group that has a press release on its website titled, "Oh, Muslim armies, teach the Jews a lesson after which they will need no further lessons". It goes on to talk about eradicating Israel and purifying the Earth of Jewish filth. That is certainly hateful, isn't it?

TAJI MUSTAFA: Well, I question whether that was on our website.

LEIGH SALES: Well here it is. (Hands him a document).

TAJI MUSTAFA: Our position is absolutely clear. (Looking at document) Well, this does not look like our website.

LEIGH SALES: (Pointing to the top of the document with a pen) Well look at the address at the top.

.......

LEIGH SALES: But I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether - Tony Abbott's called you hateful. I'm trying to get to the bottom of what your views. Do you think that Jews should be eradicated?

TAJI MUSTAFA: No. Islam has a long history of saying that Muslims, Jews and - the only time Jews lived successfully in the Muslim world, Christians lived successfully, was under the caliphate, under what we called for.

LEIGH SALES: What did you think about the [beheading placard] protests in Sydney on the weekend?

TAJI MUSTAFA: I think it was concerning. Um, but, you know, this is a part of - it's something that's happening all over the world. And I think what's actually good and important for a wider audience watching this or anything else to appreciate is why, why so much anger, why directed at the US embassy?

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3592084.htm

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #16 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 6:21pm

Quote:

A source would be great FD.

It's a very broad statement Gandalf. There was not even a centralised government to impose inequality. It was every tribe for itself - hence the tribal feuding in Medina which lead them to invite Muhammed to adjudicate.

Quote:

Actually, I would say that the pre-pre islamic society was pretty close to genuine equality - that is the nomadic bedouin society that preceded the urbanised, mercantile society that Muhammad was born into.

Great. I won't even ask for a source.

Quote:

Inter-clan relationships were largely harmonious

Except of course for when they weren't.

Quote:

All this changed with the transformation of Arabia as a major trading hub between Asia and Europe. Society became urbanised as the economy changed from nomadic to mercantile. As a result, the clan-based society broke down as capitalism and individualism reigned supreme. And as always happens in such societies, power and money became the exclusive domain to a tiny elite, who concentrated their efforts on increasing their power and wealth. The clan structures broke down almost completely

It was still clan based in Muhammed's time. Do you remember insisting that it was OK for Muhammed to execute 800 Jewish POWs because they were so borg-like in the extent to which they would act as one, and thus many were responsible for the actions of few? Your little fantasies are starting to contradict each other.

Quote:

Among other things, the early revelations dedicated a surprisingly large focus on orphans. Muhammad's message was a social-justice message, and almost all his early followers were those who bore the brunt of the social injustice that he spoke against.

Wow, so he didn't peach jihad and superiority until he became the elite and could create orphans himself and make others destitute? It's quite the backflip, don't you think? I can't think of any modern politician who is so flexible in their morals.

Quote:

In fact I don't think anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of the historical Muhammad would suggest that this social reality wasn't key to the rise of Muhammad - let alone deny that it even existed.

It was key to the early rise, but was quickly abandoned in favour of rape and pillage as soon as it became the more efficient strategy. Muhammed's social welfare message was reserved for Muslims, at the expense of non-Muslims. It was not based on equality, but the most cynical strategy of class warfare imaginable. It was not about equality, but about superiority of Muslims. Any cult of superiority has to ensure that the most inferior within the cult are elevated above those outside the cult. That is what Islam did, and it is no different to the worst racist and fascist ideologies that followed. You might as well sing the praises of Nazis or white supremacists because they are so kind to white trash.

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freediver

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #17 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 6:44pm

This is the sort of equality promoted by Muhammed. Keep in mind that Muhammed and his fellow warmongers were free to openly mock and threaten other religions and religious people, particularly Jews. With pagans they preferred to simply kill them, unless they accepted the offer to convert to Islam.

moses wrote on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 11:39am:

Deliberate murder of innocent people would come under extremism I suppose:

muhammad had early poets who used satire to show his stupidity and evilness murdered, he conveniently had his so called prophecies to denounce the poets and call for their murder.

Explanations on the assassinations of satirical poets in early Islam can be found here or here and here

A typical murder by muhammad's command was:

Quote:

March 624: Asma bint Marwan

Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans, and whose husband was named Yazid b. Zayd. She composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise.When the apostle heard what she had said, he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?"`Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her.She had five children, and the youngest was suckling at her breast. The assassin removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep.

In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [muhammad] said, "You have helped allah and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.

Source: Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham hadi'th

A suckling child was left to fend for it'self and die, this was considered inconsequential according to muhammad, "two goats won't butt their heads about her" was his response.

I intend to use this thread, from time to time, to post humour depicting the stupidity and evil malevolence of islam, muslims, allah and the qur'an. To honour the murdered poets of early islam and muhammad

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Karnal

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #18 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 8:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 6:21pm:

Quote:

A source would be great FD.

It's a very broad statement Gandalf. There was not even a centralised government to impose inequality. It was every tribe for itself - hence the tribal feuding in Medina which lead them to invite Muhammed to adjudicate.

Quote:

Actually, I would say that the pre-pre islamic society was pretty close to genuine equality - that is the nomadic bedouin society that preceded the urbanised, mercantile society that Muhammad was born into.

Great. I won't even ask for a source.

Quote:

Inter-clan relationships were largely harmonious

Except of course for when they weren't.

Quote:

All this changed with the transformation of Arabia as a major trading hub between Asia and Europe. Society became urbanised as the economy changed from nomadic to mercantile. As a result, the clan-based society broke down as capitalism and individualism reigned supreme. And as always happens in such societies, power and money became the exclusive domain to a tiny elite, who concentrated their efforts on increasing their power and wealth. The clan structures broke down almost completely

It was still clan based in Muhammed's time. Do you remember insisting that it was OK for Muhammed to execute 800 Jewish POWs because they were so borg-like in the extent to which they would act as one, and thus many were responsible for the actions of few? Your little fantasies are starting to contradict each other.

Quote:

Among other things, the early revelations dedicated a surprisingly large focus on orphans. Muhammad's message was a social-justice message, and almost all his early followers were those who bore the brunt of the social injustice that he spoke against.

Wow, so he didn't peach jihad and superiority until he became the elite and could create orphans himself and make others destitute? It's quite the backflip, don't you think? I can't think of any modern politician who is so flexible in their morals.

Quote:

In fact I don't think anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of the historical Muhammad would suggest that this social reality wasn't key to the rise of Muhammad - let alone deny that it even existed.

It was key to the early rise, but was quickly abandoned in favour of rape and pillage as soon as it became the more efficient strategy. Muhammed's social welfare message was reserved for Muslims, at the expense of non-Muslims. It was not based on equality, but the most cynical strategy of class warfare imaginable. It was not about equality, but about superiority of Muslims. Any cult of superiority has to ensure that the most inferior within the cult are elevated above those outside the cult. That is what Islam did, and it is no different to the worst racist and fascist ideologies that followed. You might as well sing the praises of Nazis or white supremacists because they are so kind to white trash.

I’ve sung the praises of Moslems here because they’ve been so kind to me.

Kashmiris, Iranians and Pashtun Afghans. They helped me in foreign countries, took.me in, and probably saved my life.

And for no payment or reward.

I don’t know if it was because these friends were Muslims, or in spite of it. Islam was never mentioned, but they were practicing, religious Muslims.

Your words don’t ring true. Your voice has no love, knowledge or heart. It’s a clanging symbol - if that.

I have very little knowledge or interest in Islam, but I’ve experienced a kindness in some Muslims that has nothing to do with religion and ideology.

Or does it?

I’ll never know, but I hope I never fall into the divisive-bullsh!t game you’re addicted to - with no experience at all.

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« Last Edit: Mar 25^th, 2014 at 8:18pm by Karnal »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #19 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 8:21pm

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 6:21pm:

It's a very broad statement Gandalf.

No the claim was quite specific:

Quote:

Arab society at Muhammed's time was based on genuine equality

Surely you can cite something credible that supports this claim no? Oh wait sorry, that would mean you would actually have to read something about it.

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 6:21pm:

Great. I won't even ask for a source.

No need. Sources provided in the last paragraph.

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 6:21pm:

It was key to the early rise

Ah. So you are agreeing that there was a genuine underclass constituency for Muhammad.... um.. even though society was "based on genuine equality"?

Also, you are confusing Meccan and Medinan society. Medina was essentially an agrarian society - the individualistic mercantile society I referred to was in Mecca

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #20 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 9:38pm

Quote:

Surely you can cite something credible that supports this claim no?

I have, several times already. Your problem is not that I have not given evidence, it is simply lack of comprehension on your part. Either that, or you are actually blind. You have not quoted my response, so it is hard to tell.

Quote:

Ah. So you are agreeing that there was a genuine underclass constituency for Muhammad.... um.. even though society was "based on genuine equality"?

His message, whatever it was, attracted followers. I doubt it was rape it pillage. That is what I am saying.

Quote:

Also, you are confusing Meccan and Medinan society. Medina was essentially an agrarian society - the individualistic mercantile society I referred to was in Mecca

Great. So in protest of individualism in Mecca he created an oppressive autocratic regime (to replace the existing pluralistic one) in Medina from which to attack it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #21 - Mar 25^th, 2014 at 9:58pm

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 9:38pm:

I have, several times already.

No you haven't. What you have provided "several times already" is a set of logical leaps based on your own completely unsourced version of history.

For example reply #1 of this thread is no less than 5 paragraphs of claims about the historical Muhammad, not one of which is sourced. You simply make conclusions built on assumptions that are utterly without basis - and call it evidence. One could be forgiven for thinking that you simply made them up.

I on the other hand have referenced the works of Montgommery Watt (and others), pre-eminent western scholar of islam, whose research on Muhammad and the society in which he lived, provides conclusions that are diametrically opposed to your own (unsourced) version. Since this is the case, your arguments can only be taken seriously if you present a credible (and sourced) case for why Watt and the other researchers that back him up are wrong.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #22 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 8:59am

Karnal wrote on Mar 25^th, 2014 at 8:09pm:

I’ve sung the praises of Moslems here because they’ve been so kind to me.

Kashmiris, Iranians and Pashtun Afghans. They helped me in foreign countries, took.me in, and probably saved my life.

And for no payment or reward.

I don’t know if it was because these friends were Muslims, or in spite of it. Islam was never mentioned, but they were practicing, religious Muslims.

Your words don’t ring true. Your voice has no love, knowledge or heart. It’s a clanging symbol - if that.

I have very little knowledge or interest in Islam, but I’ve experienced a kindness in some Muslims that has nothing to do with religion and ideology.

Or does it?

I’ll never know, but I hope I never fall into the divisive-bullsh!t game you’re addicted to - with no experience at all.

Stalin and his ambassadors and diplomats were friendly and hospitable, too. That doesn't make Stalinism any more acceptable. Pol Pot studied in France and could eat with a knife and fork. Lots of German aristocrats, with impeccable social graces, were nazis.

I also had the opportunity to be impressed by Muslim good will. It doesn't make Islam any more defensible.

Look at Islam's effect on the world. That's what matters.

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Clyne

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #23 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 10:18am

Soren wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 8:59am:

Stalin and his ambassadors and diplomats were friendly and hospitable, too. That doesn't make Stalinism any more acceptable. Pol Pot studied in France and could eat with a knife and fork. Lots of German aristocrats, with impeccable social graces, were nazis.

I also had the opportunity to be impressed by Muslim good will. It doesn't make Islam any more defensible.

Look at Islam's effect on the world. That's what matters.

Shouldn't we evaluate how we think about people based upon the person themselves, and not on our perceptions of what we believe their belief system means to them?

Even if Islam was a 'religion of hate' and the Koran was what some on here suggest (which I respectfully disagree with), there are vast numbers of Muslim people in the world who live like any other people. I'm sure there are many who are not totally observant of all the rules. Just like a great number of Christians who don't go to church on whatever day their particular group suggests - doesn't mean they are not a member of that group because they don't strictly follow all rules.

And it doesn't really matter what Mohammed said or didn't say a thousand years ago - people have their own free will to live as they choose. By slotting them into categories as we see fit we deny them the chance to identify as they want to.

How would some of you feel if I suggested that your feelings against Islam were just part of a huge plot attempting to hide its intentions of its own violent world domination? You would rightly feel really cheesed off because I had labelled you with an identity and motivations that you did not hold. You would also be angry that I wasn't allowing you to share your views of what you actually thought because I would be constantly telling you that you were lying simply to achieve your goal of world domination.

I really believe that by pigeon-holing a whole group of people into a single monolithic category and silencing their voices we contribute to the problem of fanaticism because some people become so angry that they begin to feel sympathy with those who have extreme views, and silence those who are standing up to fight for what they believe is a viable belief system to live a peaceful and moral life in coexistence with others.

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"Go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb!" - Kamina

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam and equality Reply #24 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 11:03am Well said Clyne - and Karnal
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freediver

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #25 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 12:42pm

Quote:

For example reply #1 of this thread is no less than 5 paragraphs of claims about the historical Muhammad, not one of which is sourced. You simply make conclusions built on assumptions that are utterly without basis - and call it evidence. One could be forgiven for thinking that you simply made them up.

It's all pretty basic stuff Gandalf. Do you disagree that Muhammed was invited into Medina to adjudicate between different tribes of different religions who were not previously under strong central authority? I have explained this several times. You have not disagreed with it at all. You have however repeatedly gone back to the original claim and demanded evidence for it, while ignoring the evidence and explanation I offered.

Quote:

I on the other hand have referenced the works of Montgommery Watt (and others)

Ah, so it is not actually evidence you want. Instead of thinking for yourself, you want this to be a game of googling distinguished gentlemen with the same interpretation or opinion.

Quote:

provides conclusions that are diametrically opposed to your own (unsourced) version

This sort of 'evidence' for example. I also disagree that his opinion is diametrically opposed, as explained above. But I have little interest in arguing over whose opinion is the most distinguished.

You manage to demand evidence at the same time as steadfastly avoiding any discussion of either the evidence or the basic issue of Islam and equality. You are deflecting, just like every Muslim here before you.

Clyne:

Quote:

Shouldn't we evaluate how we think about people based upon the person themselves, and not on our perceptions of what we believe their belief system means to them?

Sure. Likewise, just because a Nazi believes in Nazism doesn't mean we should think any less of them. We should patiently listen to all the apologetics and justifications they offer for wanting to eradicate Jews.

Quote:

there are vast numbers of Muslim people in the world who live like any other people

Gandalf pulled out the same crap in response to revelations that most Malaysian Muslims want the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery. Not sure what vapid point you are trying to make. Should we focus on whether a Nazi eats cornflakes for breakfast rather than their political views?

Quote:

How would some of you feel if I suggested that your feelings against Islam were just part of a huge plot

I'd say join the club.

Quote:

You would also be angry that I wasn't allowing you to share your views

No I wouldn't. I am perfectly capable of sharing my views and I don't need to pre-empt them with layers of limp-wristed apologetic nonsense in the hope people will respect my views regardless of what they are.

Quote:

I really believe that by pigeon-holing a whole group of people into a single monolithic category and silencing their voice

Muhammed once executed 800 Jewish POWs in one day. Gandalf likes to explain that this is OK because they were a monolithic entity who were all responsible for the crimes of a few. Calling bullshit is not silencing someone. Chopping their head off is. What you criticise us for is actually at the core of Islam.

Quote:

because some people become so angry that they begin to feel sympathy with those who have extreme views

So we should self censor so as not to upset the spineless apologists and turn them into terrorists?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #26 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 1:28pm

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

It's all pretty basic stuff Gandalf.

The claim "Arab society at Muhammed's time was based on genuine equality" is not basic stuff. It is an unsubstantiated claim that has been directly refuted by the sources I quoted.

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

Ah, so it is not actually evidence you want. Instead of thinking for yourself, you want this to be a game of googling distinguished gentlemen with the same interpretation or opinion.

Appeals to authority in this case matter. Believe it or not, thats the only way lay-gentlemen like you and me can learn about history. If your point was valid, you would have no problem demonstrating "distinguished gentlemen" who hold the same opinion as you. But you won't because there are none. Arab society was not based on "genuine equality" at that time, and no one except you is saying it was.

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

But I have little interest in arguing over whose opinion is the most distinguished.

Right - we wouldn't want to compare the opinions of Montgommery Watt - world renound scholar of islam with Freediver - internet hack on ozpolitic would we?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #27 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 4:28pm

Clyne wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 10:18am:

Soren wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 8:59am:

Stalin and his ambassadors and diplomats were friendly and hospitable, too. That doesn't make Stalinism any more acceptable. Pol Pot studied in France and could eat with a knife and fork. Lots of German aristocrats, with impeccable social graces, were nazis.

I also had the opportunity to be impressed by Muslim good will. It doesn't make Islam any more defensible.

Look at Islam's effect on the world. That's what matters.

Shouldn't we evaluate how we think about people based upon the person themselves, and not on our perceptions of what we believe their belief system means to them?

Even if Islam was a 'religion of hate' and the Koran was what some on here suggest (which I respectfully disagree with), there are vast numbers of Muslim people in the world who live like any other people. I'm sure there are many who are not totally observant of all the rules. Just like a great number of Christians who don't go to church on whatever day their particular group suggests - doesn't mean they are not a member of that group because they don't strictly follow all rules.

And it doesn't really matter what Mohammed said or didn't say a thousand years ago - people have their own free will to live as they choose. By slotting them into categories as we see fit we deny them the chance to identify as they want to.

How would some of you feel if I suggested that your feelings against Islam were just part of a huge plot attempting to hide its intentions of its own violent world domination? You would rightly feel really cheesed off because I had labelled you with an identity and motivations that you did not hold. You would also be angry that I wasn't allowing you to share your views of what you actually thought because I would be constantly telling you that you were lying simply to achieve your goal of world domination.

I really believe that by pigeon-holing a whole group of people into a single monolithic category and silencing their voices we contribute to the problem of fanaticism because some people become so angry that they begin to feel sympathy with those who have extreme views, and silence those who are standing up to fight for what they believe is a viable belief system to live a peaceful and moral life in coexistence with others.

Good points, Clyne. We are, after all, talking about a quarter of the world's population here.

Islam is far from monolithic. There are probably as many differences between Muslims are there are between Christians. There are probably as many Christians in the world as there are Muslims.

Imagine blaming Christians for the world's problems - which ones? Coptics? Catholics? Lutherans?

Blaming Muslims is as ignorant as blaming Jews. Unlike the cultural/racial status of Jews, however, Islam is a disunited collection of nations, races and groups. Nor is Islam a political ideology - there are vast differences in social and political thought between Muslims.

Suggesting Islam is akin to Nazism is so far from reality as to be completely dissasociated from it. There are definitely nationalist movements within Islam that have fascist tendencies, but Islam as a whole does not fit the bill. Throughout history, Muslims have sided with Christians or other groups against Muslims, and many have protected non-Muslims from other Muslims.

You're right. Pidgeon-holing an entire "group" of people is indeed fanatical. This is the very essence of totalitarianism. It's a form of mass-delusion, very Freudian.

But that's the old boys for you. University of Balogney, innit.

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freediver

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #28 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 7:13pm

Quote:

The claim "Arab society at Muhammed's time was based on genuine equality" is not basic stuff. It is an unsubstantiated claim that has been directly refuted by the sources I quoted.

I must have missed the bit where he directly refuted it. You refuted it, then spent a few pages pretending that this guy agrees with you. You also remain oblivious to my repeated attempts to explain the evidence to you. Could you at least quote it and explain why you reject it, rather than pretending you have turned blind?

Quote:

Appeals to authority in this case matter. Believe it or not, thats the only way lay-gentlemen like you and me can learn about history.

Quote:

Right - we wouldn't want to compare the opinions of Montgommery Watt - world renound scholar of islam with Freediver - internet hack on ozpolitic would we?

Are you admitting now that you have abandoned your facade of demanding evidence?

Quote:

Blaming Muslims is as ignorant as blaming Jews.

I don't see anyone here blaming Muslims for anything. Islam however, just like any other ideology, should be attributed responsibility for it's influence on the world, lest history be reduced to a list of billions of unrelated incidents.

Quote:

Unlike the cultural/racial status of Jews, however, Islam is a disunited collection of nations, races and groups.

Islam is a religion and a political ideology.

Quote:

Nor is Islam a political ideology - there are vast differences in social and political thought between Muslims.

There are vast differences in ideology between capitalists, libertarians, Greens etc. Does that mean they are not political ideologies? And none of them have a book to tell them what to think. You are plumbing the depths of stupidity here, essentially arguing that Islam does not exist.

Quote:

Suggesting Islam is akin to Nazism is so far from reality as to be completely dissasociated from it.

I did not actually suggest that. What I suggested is that Clyne's argument is stupid. Nazism is convenient for two reasons. One, it is similar to Islam (see, that is what it looks like when I actually say something). Two, it is so familiar to a western audience that I do not need to justify my right to criticise it, hopefully making the idiocy of Clyne's argument immediately apparent. Obviously it didn't work. Clyne's argument would be equally stupid, regardless of whether it is applied to Muslims, Nazis, Fascists, Capitalists, Libertarians, Greens, Dogs or Tractors.

Quote:

There are definitely nationalist movements within Islam that have fascist tendencies

How dare you criticise fascists. Fascists eat corn flakes for breakfast just like everyone else. Not all fascists of course, as there are immense differences. Some for example eat weetbix. Therefor you cannot criticise them for being fascist. They are not a monolithic entity. Fascism is not even a political ideology. It's a social club. Some even share many of their views with Muslims.

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Soren

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #29 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 7:17pm

Clyne wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 10:18am:

Soren wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 8:59am:

Stalin and his ambassadors and diplomats were friendly and hospitable, too. That doesn't make Stalinism any more acceptable. Pol Pot studied in France and could eat with a knife and fork. Lots of German aristocrats, with impeccable social graces, were nazis.

I also had the opportunity to be impressed by Muslim good will. It doesn't make Islam any more defensible.

Look at Islam's effect on the world. That's what matters.

Shouldn't we evaluate how we think about people based upon the person themselves, and not on our perceptions of what we believe their belief system means to them?

No.

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