Australian Politics Forum - People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies

King FriYAY II

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #45 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:50pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

King FriYAY II wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:25pm:

Do they walk to Indonesia?

It is much easier to get to Indonesia on false documents, but not so much when travelling to Australia. These false documents are usually seized by the smugglers upon use.

Too funny, so they have time to get "false documents".

Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:23pm by King FriYAY II »

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greggerypeccary

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #46 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:51pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:15pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

They are illegal border transgressors, they are not asylum seekers because you say they are. They are country shoppers who thought they would get what they want by paying people smugglers to gain ILLEGAL entry.

End of.

First, they are asylum seekers because they say they are (it has nothing to do with me).

Anybody who says "I claim asylum" is indeed a genuine asylum seeker. They may not, however, turn out to be genuine refugees, but they are most certainly genuine asylum seekers. You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between the two terms.

Secondly, could you please provide a reference to the piece of legislation which says that it is illegal for an asylum seeker to transgress borders (specific section of the act, if you would be so kind).

Cheers.

If we apply your logic to the real world, Ivan Milat must also be innocent - because he says he is!

It's not my logic, it's a simple fact. There is nothing subjective about this.

Claiming to be an asylum seeker, and claiming to be innocent of a crime are two completely different things.

You are so far off on a tangent now, that it's not funny.

If someone says that they are claiming asylum, they are an asylum seeker. However, that does not mean that they are a refugee.

Why is it that so many people on this forum don't understand the difference between 'asylum seeker' and 'refugee'?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #47 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:11pm

Rider wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Not sure where seeking a better economic lifestyle meets the criteria for asylum however??? Surely such applicants should be going through valid immigration channels.....call me crazy Cool

It seems that you're not sure of anything, really.

I would suggest that you learn the meaning of a few basic terms before you continue with any discussion on this topic.

Terms such as:

- asylum seeker
- refugee
- immigrant
- illegal

Once you gain an understanding of the meaning of those words, your posts may start to make sense.

And just to be clear, the criteria for being an asylum seeker is quite simple: one merely says "I seek asylum".

Cheers.

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies Reply #48 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm One needs to be in australia to claim asylum. Entering australia without a valid visa is illegal, hence these asylum seekers are entering australia illegally. If they werent entering illegally there would be no need to detain them in order to assess their claims.
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Rhet-Oracle

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #49 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

They are illegal border transgressors, they are not asylum seekers because you say they are. They are country shoppers who thought they would get what they want by paying people smugglers to gain ILLEGAL entry.

End of.

First, they are asylum seekers because they say they are (it has nothing to do with me).

Anybody who says "I claim asylum" is indeed a genuine asylum seeker. They may not, however, turn out to be genuine refugees, but they are most certainly genuine asylum seekers. You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between the two terms.

Secondly, could you please provide a reference to the piece of legislation which says that it is illegal for an asylum seeker to transgress borders (specific section of the act, if you would be so kind).

Cheers.

Nope, they are border transgressors, and they WERE entering Australian borders ILLEGALLY.

Cheers.

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Stratos

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #50 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm

Grendel wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

So they are criminals using criminal means to enter other countries.

Not a crime for the purposes of seeking asulym, as you well know.

Point to a single asylum seeker who has been charged with a crime relating to things such as not having a visa or being a passenger on a people smuggler's vessel.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Rhet-Oracle

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #51 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:17pm

ian wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm:

One needs to be in australia to claim asylum. Entering australia without a valid visa is illegal, hence these asylum seekers are entering australia illegally. If they werent entering illegally there would be no need to detain them in order to assess their claims.

Thank you!

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greggerypeccary

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #52 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:19pm

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

They are illegal border transgressors, they are not asylum seekers because you say they are. They are country shoppers who thought they would get what they want by paying people smugglers to gain ILLEGAL entry.

End of.

First, they are asylum seekers because they say they are (it has nothing to do with me).

Anybody who says "I claim asylum" is indeed a genuine asylum seeker. They may not, however, turn out to be genuine refugees, but they are most certainly genuine asylum seekers. You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between the two terms.

Secondly, could you please provide a reference to the piece of legislation which says that it is illegal for an asylum seeker to transgress borders (specific section of the act, if you would be so kind).

Cheers.

Nope, they are border transgressors, and they WERE entering Australian borders ILLEGALLY.

Cheers.

You keep avoiding this, but I'm not going to let you off:

Could you please provide a reference to the piece of legislation which says that it is illegal for an asylum seeker to transgress borders (specific section of the act, if you would be so kind).

Over to you ...

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ian

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #53 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:19pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm:

[
Not a crime for the purposes of seeking asulym, as you well know.

Point to a single asylum seeker who has been charged with a crime relating to things such as not having a visa or being a passenger on a people smuggler's vessel.

sorry, incorrect. entering australia without a valid visas is illegal despite the intended purpose. Because we dont prosecute does not negate this.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies Reply #54 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:20pm Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm: Nope, they are border transgressors, and they WERE entering Australian borders ILLEGALLY. Aw look, he won't answer the question.
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies Reply #55 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:21pm The law states (and we have been through this before) anyone (the law does not differentiate) who enters australia without a valid visa is committing an offence. Anyone.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #56 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:22pm

ian wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm:

One needs to be in australia to claim asylum. Entering australia without a valid visa is illegal, hence these asylum seekers are entering australia illegally. If they werent entering illegally there would be no need to detain them in order to assess their claims.

Incorrect.

They are detained for health, identity and security checks.

Seeking asylum in a boat, without a passport or visa, is not illegal.

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Stratos

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #57 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:24pm

ian wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:19pm:

sorry, incorrect. entering australia without a valid visas is illegal despite the intended purpose. Because we dont prosecute does not negate this.

This is illegal entry, and refers to the transport.

Quote:

Use of 'illegal' to describe asylum seekers

Experts contacted by ABC Fact Check say it is not appropriate to use "illegal" when specifically describing asylum seekers or refugees.

Professor Jane McAdam, director of the International Refugee and Migration Law Project at the University of New South Wales, says that "asylum seekers are not illegal under international law".

"By ratifying the Refugee Convention, governments agree precisely not to treat asylum seekers as illegal," Professor McAdam said.

Professor Andreas Schloenhardt, from the University of Queensland law school took a similar view, saying "the terms 'asylum seeker' and 'illegal' should not be used together or in the same sentence".

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Rhet-Oracle

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #58 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:28pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

ian wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm:

One needs to be in australia to claim asylum. Entering australia without a valid visa is illegal, hence these asylum seekers are entering australia illegally. If they werent entering illegally there would be no need to detain them in order to assess their claims.

Incorrect.

They are detained for health, identity and security checks.

Seeking asylum in a boat, without a passport or visa, is not illegal.

So entry visas are just a waste of time? Crossing the border without one is breaking the law, hard for you to grasp I know, but quite simply unless you have received permission to enter any country, if you cross its borders, you are an ILLEGAL entrant.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: People smugglers choosing new routes, strategies
Reply #59 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:33pm

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:28pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

ian wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:16pm:

One needs to be in australia to claim asylum. Entering australia without a valid visa is illegal, hence these asylum seekers are entering australia illegally. If they werent entering illegally there would be no need to detain them in order to assess their claims.

Incorrect.

They are detained for health, identity and security checks.

Seeking asylum in a boat, without a passport or visa, is not illegal.

So entry visas are just a waste of time? Crossing the border without one is breaking the law, hard for you to grasp I know, but quite simply unless you have received permission to enter any country, if you cross its borders, you are an ILLEGAL entrant.

Could you please provide a reference to the piece of legislation which says that it is illegal for an asylum seeker to transgress borders (specific section of the act, if you would be so kind).

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