Australian Politics Forum - why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....

Yadda

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why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:22pm

"....why do Muslims today have to be accountable for this action?"

Clyne wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:23pm:

Quote:

Muhammed once executed 800 Jewish POWs in one day. Gandalf likes to explain that this is OK because they were a monolithic entity who were all responsible for the crimes of a few. Calling bullshit is not silencing someone. Chopping their head off is. What you criticise us for is actually at the core of Islam.

I believe my point stands - why do Muslims today have to be accountable for this action?

WHY ?

Because moslems today align themselves with the values which are intrinsic to being 'ISLAMIC'.

Because moslems today align themselves with the values which are intrinsic to a person demonstrating that he is, a moslem.

e.g.

WHO IS A 'GOOD' MOSLEM ?

AND HOW DO ISLAMIC FOUNDATION TEXTS 'DESCRIBE' THE MOTIVATION OF A 'GOOD' MOSLEM ?

Quote:

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED - THE HADITH....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" "
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

n.b.

......"He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

Clyne,

QUESTION;
IF MOSLEMS [in truth] DO NOT ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH THESE 'AMBITIONS', then in what sense is a moslem entitled to make the claim, to associate himself with ISLAM ?

And in what way [or 'sense'] does a 'moderate' moslem, have the right to refer to himself as, a 'moslem' ?

n.b.
ISLAM itself would reject such a publicly claimed stance, from an individual claiming to be a 'moslem'.

What is ISLAM ???

And what violence against 'disbelievers' does ISLAM sanction require, form the part of a true moslem ?

ISLAMIC law....

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260i

Once more, with feeling!.....

Quote:

.....who, is a moslem ?

A moslem, is a moslem.

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

And what is ISLAM ???

And what does ISLAM sanction ?

Does ISLAM sanction violence against 'disbelievers', BECAUSE THEY ARE 'DISBELIEVERS' ?

And if ISLAM did sanction violence against 'disbelievers', BECAUSE THEY ARE 'DISBELIEVERS', wouldn't that violence against 'disbelievers' be counted as an expression of 'extremism' ?

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #1 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:46pm

Clyne wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 12:23pm:

Quote:

Muhammed once executed 800 Jewish POWs in one day. Gandalf likes to explain that this is OK because they were a monolithic entity who were all responsible for the crimes of a few. Calling bullshit is not silencing someone. Chopping their head off is. What you criticise us for is actually at the core of Islam.

I believe my point stands - why do Muslims today have to be accountable for this action?

Clyne,

With all of the apparent ISLAMIC violence in the world today, isn't there an obligation upon moslems [themselves] to outline to us, how real ISLAMIC doctrines, are inherently benign and peaceful, as they are claiming ???

Quote:

Why 'Moderate Islam' is an Oxymoron
March 24, 2014

At a time when terrorism committed in the name of Islam is rampant, we are continuously being assured—especially by three major institutions that play a dominant role in forming the Western mindset, namely, mainstream media, academia, and government—that the sort of Islam embraced by "radicals," "jihadis," and so forth, has nothing to do with "real" Islam.

"True" Islam, so the narrative goes, is intrinsically free of anything "bad." It's the nut-jobs who hijack it for their own agenda that are to blame.

http://www.meforum.org/3802/moderate-islam

ISLAM is a deceptive and extremist philosophy.

And ISLAM, is demonstrated to be a viciously violent philosophy towards its critics [and towards non-moslems] - wherever such violence cannot be constrained [by those who are not moslems].

It is absolutely, imo, not credible for any one who joins himself to ISLAM to claim, that ISLAM is intrinsically 'moderate' or begin, or that moslems themselves are benign, in their true intentions, towards persons who are outside of his [the moslem] 'camp'.

If any person makes such a claim, such a person is simply engaging in ISLAMIC lying and ISLAMIC deceit - so as to protect and to shield their real intentions from open scrutiny and censure, imo.i Quote:

WHY, DO MOSLEMS LIE TO US ???

Taqiyya

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1366856138/763#763

Taqiyya
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

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« Last Edit: Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:52pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Clyne

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #2 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 5:54pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:46pm:

Clyne,

With all of the apparent ISLAMIC violence in the world today, isn't there an obligation upon moslems [themselves] to outline to us, how real ISLAMIC doctrines, are inherently benign and peaceful, as they are claiming ???

ISLAM is a deceptive and extremist philosophy.

And ISLAM, is demonstrated to be a viciously violent philosophy towards its critics [and towards non-moslems] - wherever such violence cannot be constrained [by those who are not moslems].

It is absolutely, imo, not credible for any one who joins himself to ISLAM to claim, that ISLAM is intrinsically 'moderate' or begin, or that moslems themselves are benign, in their true intentions, towards persons who are outside of his [the moslem] 'camp'.

If any person makes such a claim, such a person is simply engaging in ISLAMIC lying and ISLAMIC deceit - so as to protect and to shield their real intentions from open scrutiny and censure, imo.

CNN: "Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated" 06.01.2010

I'd post a link but I'm not up to 100 posts yet so I will put in some quotes from the article:

Quote:

The terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim- Americans has been exaggerated, according to a study released Wednesday by researchers at Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

A small number of Muslim-Americans have undergone radicalization since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, the study found. It compiled a list of 139 individuals it categorized as "Muslim-American terrorism offenders" who had become radicalized in the U.S. in that time -- a rate of 17 per year.

That level is "small compared to other violent crime in America, but not insignificant," according to the study, titled "Anti-Terror Lessons of Muslim-Americans."

Quote:

"Muslim-American organizations and the vast majority of individuals that we interviewed firmly reject the radical extremist ideology that justifies the use of violence to achieve political ends," David Schanzer, an associate professor in Duke's Sanford School of Public Policy and director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, said in the statement.

Quote:

"Muslim-American communities have been active in preventing radicalization," said Charles Kurzman, professor of sociology at UNC, in the statement. "This is one reason that Muslim-American terrorism has resulted in fewer than three dozen of the 136,000 murders committed in the United States since 9/11."

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"If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future then what sort of future is it and what will we have become?" - Lacus Clyne

"Go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb!" - Kamina

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polite_gandalf

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #3 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 7:13pm

Clyne wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 5:54pm:

A small number of Muslim-Americans have undergone radicalization since the September 11, 2001

See that leftards? small number of muslims being radicalised obviously because most of them were already radicalised.

Actually, come to think of it, the article must be lying - there couldn't have been any radicalisation going on - muslims are *ALREADY* radicalised - every one of them. Never ever on stilts

SHAME LEFTARDS SHAME

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #4 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:41pm Gallup Poll: Jews and Christians Way More Likely than Muslims to Justify Killing Civilians http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/gallup-poll-jews-and-christians-way-more-likely-than-muslims-to-justify-killing-civilians/
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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #5 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:43pm Percentage of terror attacks in America.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #6 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:02pm Thanks Wally. Is that the one that counts graffiti attacks as terrorism? Islam compels Muslims to make up excuses for everything Muhammed did. You just have to ask the question.
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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #7 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:20pm freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:02pm: Thanks Wally. Is that the one that counts graffiti attacks as terrorism? Islam compels Muslims to make up excuses for everything Muhammed did. You just have to ask the question. Your posts are terror.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #8 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:51pm Better do up a pie chart.
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Yadda

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #9 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 11:46pm

Clyne wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 5:54pm:

CNN: "Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated" 06.01.2010

Quote:

"Muslim-American organizations and the vast majority of individuals that we interviewed firmly reject the radical extremist ideology that justifies the use of violence to achieve political ends," David Schanzer, an associate professor in Duke's Sanford School of Public Policy and director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, said in the statement.

Quote:

"Muslim-American communities have been active in preventing radicalization," said Charles Kurzman, professor of sociology at UNC, in the statement. "This is one reason that Muslim-American terrorism has resulted in fewer than three dozen of the 136,000 murders committed in the United States since 9/11."

Clyne,

The argument that you are promoting is, effectively, that a moslem, is not really a moslem.

Your argument is just more moslem obfuscation. [i.e. promote confusion, so as to deny clarity of thought to the enemy of the moslems]

Clyne,

The contents of the Koran, and the example of Mohammed [in the Hadith], both fervently urge the 'radicalization' of moslems!

So your quotes of moslems in America publicly claiming that moslems in America are seeking to prevent the radicalization of moslems is a bare faced lie, a deception - a 'don't scare the horses' public facade.

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51

IMAGE....

"CAIR Says Poster Warning Against Helping FBI is Misinterpreted"

CAIR = = Council on American-Islamic Relations, and CAIR is probably the most prominent mouthpiece for the moslem community in America.

Google;
"Build a Wall of Resistance"

Clyne,

Do you want us to believe that moslems, and the moslem community, in America, and their spokesmen,...... have all chosen to embrace 'the American dream' and their new opportunities in America ?

And anyone who would suggest that ISLAMIC culture and that ISLAMIC religious doctrine, teaches enmity towards America, and the American people, is wrong, and is being 'mischievous' ?

Clyne,

In what sense, has the contents of the Koran, and the urging of Mohammed [in the Hadith], to use violence and terror and DECEIT, to subjugate non-moslems for the cause of Allah [to subject non-moslems to the political authority of moslems], not have anything to do, with the state of being a 'moslem' ?

And if the contents of the Koran, and the urging of Mohammed, have nothing to do, with the state of being a 'moslem', then from what source, do moslems draw their peaceful religious doctrines ?

Clyne,

Who, is a moslem ?

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED - ISLAM'S PROPHET AND ARGUABLY, THE AUTHOR OF ALL OF ISLAM'S THEOLOGY

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED - ISLAM'S PROPHET AND ARGUABLY, THE AUTHOR OF ALL OF ISLAM'S THEOLOGY

Quote:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

hadith/bukhari/001.002.025

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96921	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #10 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 11:52pm We could have warned you, Clyne, but you needed to find out for yourself.
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Yadda

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #11 - Mar 28^th, 2014 at 12:13am

wally1 wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:43pm:

Percentage of terror attacks in America.

http://i.imgur.com/nnBhZjQ.jpg

wally1,

What does that pie chart mean ?

Does it mean that ISLAMIC terrorism in the USA is negligible ?

Dictionary;
negligible = = so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.

IMAGE.....

wtc-9-11.jpg

An example of the consequences 'negligible' ISLAMIC terrorism in the USA

....have you every had to go through a tedious security check, before boarding an aircraft ???

All courtesy of the consequences 'negligible' ISLAMIC terrorism around the world.

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

"...typically, an unrestrained INSANE person will act in ways which are harmful and destructive to himself and, or, others around him."

The influence of ISLAM, on the streets of our cities;

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' ISLAM and moslems really are.
Moslems demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #12 - Mar 28^th, 2014 at 12:41am

Karnal wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 11:52pm:

We could have warned you, Clyne, but you needed to find out for yourself.

Karnal = = obfuscation.

Spreading intellectual confusion, disguised as 'a laugh'.

If Karnal could engage me in debate, in logical argument, and demolish my arguments [critical of ISLAM and moslems] he would.

Karnal is unable to engage me in debate, in logical argument, in this forum.

An honest person would concede, that ISLAM is a deceitful and violent political philosophy, hiding behind a false facade and a false claim, of ISLAM being a virtuous religion.

But everyone knows that in debate, when you hold an indefensible position/argument [if you are not prepared to concede], your only option is to dishonestly denigrate and castigate and ridicule, the other.

Karnal is unable to demolish my arguments [which expose the true nature of ISLAM, arguments which are based upon ISLAMIC sources].

So [unwilling to concede], he resorts to denigration.

ISLAMIC law....

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Stratos

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Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?....
Reply #13 - Mar 28^th, 2014 at 7:06am

Hi Clyne, welcome to the board. not sure if you have met Yadda properly. He is a Christian who is very passionately against Islam and Muslims, and is often willing to lie and deceive in order to try and make Islam look bad.

To save you some time, here is a quick run down of some of the things he regularly says and why they are incorrect:

Taqqiya: he will often say this means Muslims can lie to non Muslims about anything, when in fact the only premise for this based on the koran is that you can only lie in order to protect yourself from danger. He has been shown this repeatedly, but prefers to spread lies instead ironically Roll Eyes

His regularly trots out a description of "terrorism" that is so broad it actually includes his own lord and saviors actions.

That behead the prophet poster from the Sydney event? A small minority, and was condemned by a LOT of Australian Muslim leaders. he knows this too, but would like you to think that all Muslims act like they do.

Oh, and he is in the weird club that thinks both genocide and the murder of babies are acceptable as long as they were done by Christians.

Welcome, and hope this post was helpful to you.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: why do Muslims today have to be accountable?.... Reply #14 - Mar 28^th, 2014 at 7:55am If you don't know how to read pie charts Yadda then go back to kindergarten.
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