Australian Politics Forum - 100 days without illegals

Aussie

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #105 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:53pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

Where did he demonstrate a disinterest in controlling it?

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Aussie

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #106 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:55pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:52pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:50pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

And the only one who seems to think that arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here is you and few of your fellow-travellers.

You really should read the posts on this forum more carefully.

Nobody here, including me, has said that merely "arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here".

However, arriving by boat and saying "I claim asylum" does give someone the legal right to apply for refugee status.

That distinction clearly means a great deal to you but I doubt it means anything to anyone else since 100% of these boat people claim asylum. It is in the end, just a phrase.

...which invokes international obligations.

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John Smith

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #107 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm

Aussie wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

Where did he demonstrate a disinterest in controlling it?

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #108 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

I'm not disinterested in controlling it.

I am intrigued by the hysteria that boat arrivals engenders in Australians, which does not seem to be replicated by any other form of arrival or ID irregularity.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #109 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:57pm

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:36pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals.

It's a totally irrelevant figure.

The majority of boat arrivals are granted genuine refugee status, and therefore have a legal right to live here.

All of the visa over-stayers who stay permanently (i.e. are not caught), have no legal right to live here.

Apples and oranges.

You know this how?

By checking facts and statistics.

"BOAT PEOPLE 'MORE LIKELY TO BE GENUINE REFUGEES"

"A report by the Lowy Institute says boat people are more likely to be recognised as refugees than asylum seekers who arrive by air. It says: "Arguably Australia is worrying about the wrong asylum seekers. Whereas the majority of those arriving by boat are refugees, the majority of those arriving by air are not".

"Past figures show that between 70 and 97 per cent of asylum seekers arriving by boat at different times were found to be genuine refugees, and were granted protection either in Australia or in another country.

"According to figures by the Refugee Council of Australia, in 1998-99 approximately 97 per cent of Iraqi and 92 per cent of Afghan applicants - the majority of which arrived by boat - were granted refugee status and given permanent visas.

"More recent figures show that of the 1,254 claims assessed on Christmas Island between July 2009 and January 2010, only 110 people were found not to be genuine refugees."

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2011/06/17/factbox-numbers-behind-asylum-deba...

Checking facts and figures is simple, when you know how.

Give it a try sometime: you might actually enjoy it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #110 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:59pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

As I said, I am intrigued by the hysteria that boat arrivals engenders in Australians, which does not seem to be replicated by any other form of arrival or ID irregularity.

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Bread and Butter

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #111 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:00pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

Where did he demonstrate a disinterest in controlling it?

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

I am starting to realise that you don't easily follow arguments, especially complex ones.

The issu of boat people is complex but I am constantly surprised by people who demand we let them in, all of them, all the time. But when I ask how many we should let in they go silent, just as they have now. Because even the desperately uninformed know that there are tens of millions of people who would happily leave their wretched lands and come here.

So how many people? Got any clues?

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John Smith

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #112 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:02pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

As I said, I am intrigued by the hysteria that boat arrivals engenders in Australians, which does not seem to be replicated by any other form of arrival or ID irregularity.

much ado about nothing .... some people try to make themselves feel better by vilyfying others .... without it they have nothing

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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rabbitoh08

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #113 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:02pm

Aussie wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

Where did he demonstrate a disinterest in controlling it?

He didn't. But it is all that the racists have.

Because they are racist, but don't want to admit it - they make up stupid strawman arguments that those who wish to see Australia fulfil it's legal responsibilities somehow want "open borders".

This is why the the racists are happy to have the truth about Manus and "turn backs" hidden from them. Then they can go on happily being racist while still pretending that they are concerned about asylum seekers drowning.

THe racists said they wanted to 'stop the boats'. The boats have not stopped. they are still coming. People are still dying. But they are not reaching Australia (supposedly - who knows really). And now the racists celebrate That is all the racists care about. That is why they are racists.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #114 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:02pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:52pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:50pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

And the only one who seems to think that arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here is you and few of your fellow-travellers.

You really should read the posts on this forum more carefully.

Nobody here, including me, has said that merely "arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here".

However, arriving by boat and saying "I claim asylum" does give someone the legal right to apply for refugee status.

That distinction clearly means a great deal to you but I doubt it means anything to anyone else since 100% of these boat people claim asylum. It is in the end, just a phrase.

Yes, that's correct: 100% of boat people claim asylum.

That makes them asylum seekers.

However, it does not make them refugees.

I would suggest that you learn the difference between those two terms (at the very least) before you continue with any discussion on this subject matter.

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John Smith

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #115 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:03pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:00pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

Where did he demonstrate a disinterest in controlling it?

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

I am starting to realise that you don't easily follow arguments, especially complex ones.

The issu of boat people is complex but I am constantly surprised by people who demand we let them in, all of them, all the time. But when I ask how many we should let in they go silent, just as they have now. Because even the desperately uninformed know that there are tens of millions of people who would happily leave their wretched lands and come here.

So how many people? Got any clues?

just as i realised you suffer from a lack of basic comprehension
'
show me one person who has said we let them ALL in?

besides, I gave you an answer earlier ... you just chose to ignore it

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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rabbitoh08

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #116 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:05pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:00pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

Where did he demonstrate a disinterest in controlling it?

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

I am starting to realise that you don't easily follow arguments, especially complex ones.

The issu of boat people is complex but I am constantly surprised by people who demand we let them in, all of them, all the time. But when I ask how many we should let in they go silent, just as they have now. Because even the desperately uninformed know that there are tens of millions of people who would happily leave their wretched lands and come here.

So how many people? Got any clues?

Don't tell lies.

Who has ever demanded "we let them in, all of them, all the time."

People are demanding that asylums seekers be treated with respect and not abused or locked up indefinitely

They have committed no crime. They should have their claims assessed - and if they are not refugees - then deported. What is difficult about that? After all - it is our legal obligation.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #117 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:06pm

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:02pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

As I said, I am intrigued by the hysteria that boat arrivals engenders in Australians, which does not seem to be replicated by any other form of arrival or ID irregularity.

much ado about nothing .... some people try to make themselves feel better by vilyfying others .... without it they have nothing

My feeling is that this hysteria is the anachronistic vestige of the "Yellow Peril" fears.

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Bread and Butter Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 390 Gender:	Re: 100 days without illegals Reply #118 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:07pm So still no numbers about how many we should let in? hmm?
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John Smith

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #119 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:08pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:06pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:02pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

its typical B&B debating ... as soon as he feels he is losing an argument he tries to take it in a different direction ... it doesn't have to make sense, not even to him

As I said, I am intrigued by the hysteria that boat arrivals engenders in Australians, which does not seem to be replicated by any other form of arrival or ID irregularity.

much ado about nothing .... some people try to make themselves feel better by vilyfying others .... without it they have nothing

My feeling is that this hysteria is the anachronistic vestige of the "Yellow Peril" fears.

I suspect you might be onto something there .

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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