Australian Politics Forum - 100 days without illegals

greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #90 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:31pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals.

It's a totally irrelevant figure.

The majority of boat arrivals are granted genuine refugee status, and therefore have a legal right to live here.

All of the visa over-stayers who stay permanently (i.e. are not caught), have no legal right to live here.

Apples and oranges.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #91 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:30pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:26pm:

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 12:45pm:

John Smith wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:58am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:53am:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:48am:

Stratos wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 7:05am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 6:53am:

F-Australia and talk crap about 9/11! You still want those kinds of people here?

Even convicted racist Andrew Bolt said that the people saying these things were in a tiny amount of the people who come to Australia.

how many terrorists do u think is an acceptable number?

I'm pretty sure terrorists know how to buy plane tickets.

And you are pretty sure because of the incredible large amount of data that leads you this conclusion? The fact that these people hide their identities not only raises deep suspicions about their motives but would be the ideal way for a known terrorist to come here.

You are both smug and naïve - a dangerous combination.

as opposed to foolish and naive

how many terrorist activities have ever been attributed to anyone arriving by boat? Now how many terrorist activites have been attributed peoples who arrived by plane?

I admit to being a bit surprised at your response and that of skippy. it would appear that your naivete runs quite deep. Do you think you wait until a terrorist attack before taking any preventative measures? Do you simply assume that every person who comes by illegal means after disposing of the identity is Mother Teresa's long lost brother? I am not saying these people are evil, but to presume they are all honest and just and genuine is ludicrously naïve.

Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent.

You need to read posts more carefully.

Ya mean you are offering a white flag?

I'll type it slowly this time, so you can keep up.

Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent.

Tell me what part you don't understand, and I'll be happy to walk you through it, one word at a time.
Cheers.

au contraire, but you are assuming innocence otherwise why would you be shouting their right to come and live here unhindered by identification or justification? The only other explanation that fits is that you are so naïve and frankly, stupid, that you don't see the danger in allowing anyone in without our explicit permission.

It has become quite obvious to me now that English is most certainly not your first language.

If you'd like to tell me which language is, I will gladly attempt to translate the statement for you (or find someone else who can).

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

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Grendel

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #92 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:35pm

Quote:

AN Egyptian asylum seeker continued living in a low-security detention centre for eight months after authorities realised he had been convicted for terrorist offences including premeditated murder.
The Egyptian man, who was the subject of an Interpol "red notice", lived at Inverbrackie with his family for about nine months before he was moved to the high-security detention centre at Villawood, in Sydney, in April.

http://www.news.com.au/national/convicted-terrorist-who-arrived-by-boat-lived-in...

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Rhet-Oracle

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #93 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:36pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals.

It's a totally irrelevant figure.

The majority of boat arrivals are granted genuine refugee status, and therefore have a legal right to live here.

All of the visa over-stayers who stay permanently (i.e. are not caught), have no legal right to live here.

Apples and oranges.

You know this how?

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Big Dave

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #94 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:38pm

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:36pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals.

It's a totally irrelevant figure.

The majority of boat arrivals are granted genuine refugee status, and therefore have a legal right to live here.

All of the visa over-stayers who stay permanently (i.e. are not caught), have no legal right to live here.

Apples and oranges.

You know this how?

He's got ESP. Either that or just believes them automatically.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #95 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:39pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals. I have done a lot of analytical work in my life and when comparing two sets of data you first need to convert them to comparable units or value. I would like you to do the same.

"58,000 illegal immigrants in Australia have arrived by plane"

"MORE than half of the overstayers have called Australia home for five or more years.

"ABOUT 20,000 have lived here a decade or more.

"TWO in three have evaded immigration authorities for more than two years."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/illegal-immigrants-arrive-by-plane/story-e6fr...

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #96 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

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Bread and Butter

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #97 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals.

It's a totally irrelevant figure.

The majority of boat arrivals are granted genuine refugee status, and therefore have a legal right to live here.

All of the visa over-stayers who stay permanently (i.e. are not caught), have no legal right to live here.

Apples and oranges.

It is a very relevant figure. If you are going to quote visa-overstayers then you need to classify them in the same dimensional category of the other bit of date (boat arrival) you seek to compare them to.

And the only one who seems to think that arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here is you and few of your fellow-travellers.

I changed my vote from Labor to Liberal on the basis of Howards 'we retain the right to choose who comes to stay in this country'. I still believe in the sovereignty of this and any other nation. I have no idea what you believe in.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #98 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:46pm

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:36pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals.

It's a totally irrelevant figure.

The majority of boat arrivals are granted genuine refugee status, and therefore have a legal right to live here.

All of the visa over-stayers who stay permanently (i.e. are not caught), have no legal right to live here.

Apples and oranges.

You know this how?

Simple: I know how to read:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-stats-...

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Bread and Butter

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #99 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:47pm

Grendel wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

Quote:

AN Egyptian asylum seeker continued living in a low-security detention centre for eight months after authorities realised he had been convicted for terrorist offences including premeditated murder.
The Egyptian man, who was the subject of an Interpol "red notice", lived at Inverbrackie with his family for about nine months before he was moved to the high-security detention centre at Villawood, in Sydney, in April.

http://www.news.com.au/national/convicted-terrorist-who-arrived-by-boat-lived-in...

Thanks for finding it. And I can hear the gasps of 'oops I was wrong' echoing around the land.

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Bread and Butter

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #100 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:50pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:39pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

What I am trying to do is to get a handle on why you and others on this thread simply want to shout 'everyone come to Australia! no ID needed, No job or skills needed'.

How many are you willing to take because there is no end to the number.

So... how many do you think we should allow to come here by boat?

I'm not shouting that at all...

In fact if those 60000 overstayers left next week, maybe job opportunities would be available to citizens and legal permanent residents.

I'm questioning the hysteria that boat arrivals generate in Australia, while entry by plane, overstaying and the issue of fake passports do not generate the same hysteria.

I would be interested in your source of this 60,000 figure. Having travelled a lot and knowing a large number of frequent travellers I also know a number who have overstayed visa - usually by accident. They would be included in numbers like yours. But the difference is, they left.

So my question is not how many visa over-stayers there are now, but how many have over-stayed and stayed permanently. That is the actual figure to compare to boat arrivals. I have done a lot of analytical work in my life and when comparing two sets of data you first need to convert them to comparable units or value. I would like you to do the same.

"58,000 illegal immigrants in Australia have arrived by plane"

"MORE than half of the overstayers have called Australia home for five or more years.

"ABOUT 20,000 have lived here a decade or more.

"TWO in three have evaded immigration authorities for more than two years."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/illegal-immigrants-arrive-by-plane/story-e6fr...

so, despite all your bluster you DID accept my premise that the figure need modification.

So let's recap. over a period spanning 50 years there have been 29,000 visa overstayers of 5 years or longer. And over the past 6 years there have been 50,000 boat arrivals.

I think I see where the effort needs to be directed so why don't you?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #101 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:50pm

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

And the only one who seems to think that arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here is you and few of your fellow-travellers.

You really should read the posts on this forum more carefully.

Nobody here, including me, has said that merely "arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here".

However, arriving by boat and saying "I claim asylum" does give someone the legal right to apply for refugee status.

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Bread and Butter

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #102 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:51pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

"Nobody in this forum is presuming they are all innocent. "

Yes, I think this strawman presumption serves the hysteria and masks its origins by deflecting from the root cause of the anachronistic fear of certain people 'invading from the north by boat'.

I don't think anybody here would agree that people should attempt a dangerous sea crossing... Or that people smugglers should profit from the trade.

So since you don't think they are all innocent why are you so disinterested in controlling it? I find those two positions at odds with each other.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74644 Gender:	Re: 100 days without illegals Reply #103 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:52pm Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm: And the only one who seems to think that arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here is you and few of your fellow-travellers you are aware that australia signed a UN convention agreeing that asylum seekers had a right to live here don't you?
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Bread and Butter

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Re: 100 days without illegals
Reply #104 - Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:52pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:50pm:

Bread and Butter wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

And the only one who seems to think that arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here is you and few of your fellow-travellers.

You really should read the posts on this forum more carefully.

Nobody here, including me, has said that merely "arriving by boat grants a legal right to live here".

However, arriving by boat and saying "I claim asylum" does give someone the legal right to apply for refugee status.

That distinction clearly means a great deal to you but I doubt it means anything to anyone else since 100% of these boat people claim asylum. It is in the end, just a phrase.

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