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Time for Abbott's wake up call (Read 3606 times)
Bread and Butter
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #30 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:34am
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:22am:
Kat wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:10am:
Pantheon wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:41am:
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:19am:
Pantheon wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:02am:
The less assets the Government owns the better, but at the same time, there needs to be check and balances to percent monopoly from developing, basic capitalism 101.

Privately owned business and assets have a profit incentive to cut costs and be more efficient. If you work for a government run industry, managers do not usually share in any profits. However, a private firm is interested in making profit and so it is more likely to cut costs and be efficient.

Also Often state own business and assets are open to Political Interference. They are motivated by political pressures rather than sound economic and business sense. For example a state enterprise may employ surplus workers which is inefficient. The government may be reluctant to get rid of the workers because of the negative publicity involved in job losses. Therefore, state owned enterprises often employ too many workers increasing inefficiency.

Selling assets off will reduce the burden on government, If worst comes to worst, we can just re-nationalized it all from national and international owners.


Essential services such as electricity, gas & water supply should never be in the hands of private enterprise.

Since the introduction of the "Competition Policies" .... where have you seen any benefits to consumers in reduced pricing caused by "said" competition?

The only saving & cost cutting is to the benefit of the company as they slash & burn to cut costs, increase profits & charge consumers more.

If a claim(privatisation & increased competition = cheaper prices & more employment) is proven to be false then why do people like you keep espousing it's benefits?



First what Competition Policies? All i see is regulation that benefit the large corporation and support current monopoly (both Labor and Liberals)

And charging consumers more is counterproductive and only large corporation and monopolies are able to get away with that. If prices are to high you would just stop buying that product and your the cheaper competitor's produced, in our system of large corporation and monopolies we don't have that Luxury and there can be ripped off.

And we can say the same thing about socialism, a system that has always payed its workers lest than capitalist counties have, made them work in worst conditions and of collapse after 80 years, compare to capitalist 250 years and counting.



That was Communism, not socialism.

Communism (or Socialism - capital S) is not the same thing as socialism (lower-case s).

Not the same thing at all, no-where near it, in fact.

Without an element of socialism, capitalism turns into the fascism we currently suffer
under here and in the UK
(for example).


Exactly ..... seems Ahovking hasn't heard of Fred Hilmer either. re. Open Competition Policy.

I say again .... supply of essential services should never be in the hands of private enterprise ..... as it should never be a  money making enterprise for greedy CEO's, Executives & Shareholders.


I laugh when I read people who think govt can provide services cheaper, faster, better and more reliable than anyone else. It is as if they live in a parallel universe.
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Gnads
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #31 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:42am
 
It's a proven fact that not all private companies can provide services cheaper, faster, better and more reliable than anyone else.

The contractors involved in the Pink Batt scheme were all private companies/businesses .......

what did they do better than anyone except be cheaper, faster, shoddier & highly dangerous?

Essential services have no place being at the mercy of private enterprises greed/ profit making.

Tell me again why the Victorian Govt had to take over the running of the rail system from private enterprise?
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Bread and Butter
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #32 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:45am
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:42am:
It's a proven fact that not all private companies can provide services cheaper, faster, better and more reliable than anyone else.

The contractors involved in the Pink Batt scheme were all private companies/businesses .......

what did they do better than anyone except be cheaper, faster, shoddier & highly dangerous?

Essential services have no place being at the mercy of private enterprises greed/ profit making.

Tell me again why the Victorian Govt had to take over the running of the rail system from private enterprise?


That was not exactly a brilliant rebuttal of my point.  Rail services are losing operations world-wide. And the pink batt fiasco was a govt-directed one.

So if you want to make your point, use a few examples without such loaded bias.
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Peter Freedman
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #33 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:58am
 
The history of privatisation in NZ, is, to say the least, very mixed.

Worst examples are:

1) Air New Zealand: Sold in 1998 to a consortium. In 2001 it neared financial collapse. The Government injected new capital and became the dominant shareholder.

2) Tranzrail: sold in 1993 to a group including Toll Australia and some mega rich Kiwis. They ran it into the ground, forcing the government to buy it back.

Conservatives obsession with privatisation is very foolish and dangerous.
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Bread and Butter
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #34 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:05pm
 
Peter Freedman wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:58am:
The history of privatisation in NZ, is, to say the least, very mixed.

Worst examples are:

1) Air New Zealand: Sold in 1998 to a consortium. In 2001 it neared financial collapse. The Government injected new capital and became the dominant shareholder.

2) Tranzrail: sold in 1993 to a group including Toll Australia and some mega rich Kiwis. They ran it into the ground, forcing the government to buy it back.

Conservatives obsession with privatisation is very foolish and dangerous.


Airlines and rail corps?  That's the best you can do?  Most savvy investors wont touch either of those for those same reasons.  Now... other privatised examples other than those already kissed with death either way?
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Gnads
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #35 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:05pm
 
Peter Freedman wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:58am:
The history of privatisation in NZ, is, to say the least, very mixed.

Worst examples are:

1) Air New Zealand: Sold in 1998 to a consortium. In 2001 it neared financial collapse. The Government injected new capital and became the dominant shareholder.

2) Tranzrail: sold in 1993 to a group including Toll Australia and some mega rich Kiwis. They ran it into the ground, forcing the government to buy it back.

Conservatives obsession with privatisation is very foolish and dangerous.


Yes Peter ... I've never met such a gullible bunch.

Also with Tranz Rail .... they let safety slide so badly that people were regularly being killed or injured on the job.....

which is another thing that is happening in Australia in the private sector.

Write procedures & put out safety alerts so as to make it look like they are safety conscious when in fact all they are doing is placing all the responsibility back on the employee, in the event of an accident they blame the worker & sack them. That is if they're not killed.

A real boon for WH&S is self regulation .... not!
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Gnads
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #36 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:16pm
 
How about Blue Scope Steel? They asked for taxpayer funded handouts?

How about all the financial institutions that caused the GFC & then got govt. bailouts & paid it out to CEO's & executives as bonuses?

How about all the private businesses that have been looking for govt. handouts to stay afloat?

There are too many to mention going down the gurgler everyday.

But I'd expect your respnse to be that's because the workers are getting paid too much. Roll Eyes

Maybe it's because of greed & pizz poor management skills & strategies.

The Corporate world is full of delegators who are capable of nothing but the gift of the gab.

Quote:
"If you can't dazzle with brilliance, you baffle with bullshyte."
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Bread and Butter
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #37 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:18pm
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:16pm:
How about Blue Scope Steel? They asked for taxpayer funded handouts?

How about all the financial institutions that caused the GFC & then got govt. bailouts & paid it out to CEO's & executives as bonuses?

How about all the private businesses that have been looking for govt. handouts to stay afloat?

There are too many to mention going down the gurgler everyday.

But I'd expect your respnse to be that's because the workers are getting paid too much. Roll Eyes

Maybe it's because of greed & pizz poor management skills & strategies.

The Corporate world is full of delegators who are capable of nothing but the gift of the gab.

Quote:
"If you can't dazzle with brilliance, you baffle with bullshyte."


Was that supposed to be a argument against privatisation? It it was, I would suggest  otherwise.
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Gnads
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #38 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:21pm
 
No doubt you would.

But that's how twisty Tories are ... especially religious Tories.
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scotty 1969
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #39 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 1:46pm
 
mantra wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:18am:
scotty 1969 wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:59am:
the working and middle class in this country is in dire need of a third party. none of the parties truly represent their interests.


Of course not, although they pretend they do. They have to answer to their global bosses, not us.

A moderate third party to represent our interests would be good, but it means if they came to power the multinationals wouldn't reap their usual profits.

As much as we love to think of ourselves as an independent and free nation, we're not. We have to do what we're told and take what we're given. We are just a little blob on the map which has excellent mineral resources and a compliant national management. 

A benign third party would be a threat to everything politicians stand for.


i agree totally. a third party that isn't infested with extreme right or extreme left thinking and that wasn't started by a billionaire
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scotty 1969
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #40 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 1:48pm
 
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:04am:
scotty 1969 wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:59am:
the working and middle class in this country is in dire need of a third party. none of the parties truly represent their interests.


And what interests are those?  Let me think: tax the rich, penalise the rich, nationalise their companies. Right?

no don't be silly, only taxing the rich would apply.
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Bread and Butter
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #41 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 2:41pm
 
scotty 1969 wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 1:48pm:
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:04am:
scotty 1969 wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:59am:
the working and middle class in this country is in dire need of a third party. none of the parties truly represent their interests.


And what interests are those?  Let me think: tax the rich, penalise the rich, nationalise their companies. Right?

no don't be silly, only taxing the rich would apply.


Pretty much proves my point. I wasn't expecting you to make it quite that easy.
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Kat
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #42 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 2:46pm
 
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:34am:
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:22am:
Kat wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:10am:
Pantheon wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:41am:
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:19am:
Pantheon wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:02am:
The less assets the Government owns the better, but at the same time, there needs to be check and balances to percent monopoly from developing, basic capitalism 101.

Privately owned business and assets have a profit incentive to cut costs and be more efficient. If you work for a government run industry, managers do not usually share in any profits. However, a private firm is interested in making profit and so it is more likely to cut costs and be efficient.

Also Often state own business and assets are open to Political Interference. They are motivated by political pressures rather than sound economic and business sense. For example a state enterprise may employ surplus workers which is inefficient. The government may be reluctant to get rid of the workers because of the negative publicity involved in job losses. Therefore, state owned enterprises often employ too many workers increasing inefficiency.

Selling assets off will reduce the burden on government, If worst comes to worst, we can just re-nationalized it all from national and international owners.


Essential services such as electricity, gas & water supply should never be in the hands of private enterprise.

Since the introduction of the "Competition Policies" .... where have you seen any benefits to consumers in reduced pricing caused by "said" competition?

The only saving & cost cutting is to the benefit of the company as they slash & burn to cut costs, increase profits & charge consumers more.

If a claim(privatisation & increased competition = cheaper prices & more employment) is proven to be false then why do people like you keep espousing it's benefits?



First what Competition Policies? All i see is regulation that benefit the large corporation and support current monopoly (both Labor and Liberals)

And charging consumers more is counterproductive and only large corporation and monopolies are able to get away with that. If prices are to high you would just stop buying that product and your the cheaper competitor's produced, in our system of large corporation and monopolies we don't have that Luxury and there can be ripped off.

And we can say the same thing about socialism, a system that has always payed its workers lest than capitalist counties have, made them work in worst conditions and of collapse after 80 years, compare to capitalist 250 years and counting.



That was Communism, not socialism.

Communism (or Socialism - capital S) is not the same thing as socialism (lower-case s).

Not the same thing at all, no-where near it, in fact.

Without an element of socialism, capitalism turns into the fascism we currently suffer
under here and in the UK
(for example).


Exactly ..... seems Ahovking hasn't heard of Fred Hilmer either. re. Open Competition Policy.

I say again .... supply of essential services should never be in the hands of private enterprise ..... as it should never be a  money making enterprise for greedy CEO's, Executives & Shareholders.


I laugh when I read people who think govt can provide services cheaper, faster, better and more reliable than anyone else. It is as if they live in a parallel universe.



Well, if being wrong gives you a laugh, who are we to deny you that simple pleasure?

Maybe if it's that enjoyable for you, you should maybe be wrong a bit more often.

Oh, wait... you are.
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...
 
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Bread and Butter
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #43 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 3:00pm
 
Kat wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 2:46pm:
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:34am:
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:22am:
Kat wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:10am:
Pantheon wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:41am:
Gnads wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:19am:
Pantheon wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:02am:
The less assets the Government owns the better, but at the same time, there needs to be check and balances to percent monopoly from developing, basic capitalism 101.

Privately owned business and assets have a profit incentive to cut costs and be more efficient. If you work for a government run industry, managers do not usually share in any profits. However, a private firm is interested in making profit and so it is more likely to cut costs and be efficient.

Also Often state own business and assets are open to Political Interference. They are motivated by political pressures rather than sound economic and business sense. For example a state enterprise may employ surplus workers which is inefficient. The government may be reluctant to get rid of the workers because of the negative publicity involved in job losses. Therefore, state owned enterprises often employ too many workers increasing inefficiency.

Selling assets off will reduce the burden on government, If worst comes to worst, we can just re-nationalized it all from national and international owners.


Essential services such as electricity, gas & water supply should never be in the hands of private enterprise.

Since the introduction of the "Competition Policies" .... where have you seen any benefits to consumers in reduced pricing caused by "said" competition?

The only saving & cost cutting is to the benefit of the company as they slash & burn to cut costs, increase profits & charge consumers more.

If a claim(privatisation & increased competition = cheaper prices & more employment) is proven to be false then why do people like you keep espousing it's benefits?



First what Competition Policies? All i see is regulation that benefit the large corporation and support current monopoly (both Labor and Liberals)

And charging consumers more is counterproductive and only large corporation and monopolies are able to get away with that. If prices are to high you would just stop buying that product and your the cheaper competitor's produced, in our system of large corporation and monopolies we don't have that Luxury and there can be ripped off.

And we can say the same thing about socialism, a system that has always payed its workers lest than capitalist counties have, made them work in worst conditions and of collapse after 80 years, compare to capitalist 250 years and counting.



That was Communism, not socialism.

Communism (or Socialism - capital S) is not the same thing as socialism (lower-case s).

Not the same thing at all, no-where near it, in fact.

Without an element of socialism, capitalism turns into the fascism we currently suffer
under here and in the UK
(for example).


Exactly ..... seems Ahovking hasn't heard of Fred Hilmer either. re. Open Competition Policy.

I say again .... supply of essential services should never be in the hands of private enterprise ..... as it should never be a  money making enterprise for greedy CEO's, Executives & Shareholders.


I laugh when I read people who think govt can provide services cheaper, faster, better and more reliable than anyone else. It is as if they live in a parallel universe.



Well, if being wrong gives you a laugh, who are we to deny you that simple pleasure?

Maybe if it's that enjoyable for you, you should maybe be wrong a bit more often.

Oh, wait... you are.


A very cutting response, cleverly articulated and dismantled ever single one of my arguments.  You are a legend... in your own mind.
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red baron
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Re: Time for Abbott's wake up call
Reply #44 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 6:43pm
 
Hey Peter Freedman how are you going after your sad loss? Hope there is some sunshine in your life.

Good to see you posting....Red
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