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How gullible are some people? (Read 49222 times)
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #105 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:48pm
 
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 6:55pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 6:32pm:
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 6:30pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 6:08pm:
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 5:57pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 5:54pm:
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 5:48pm:
the significant long-held assumption from history etc is that Jesus existed and is an assumption that has been held since the first century.


thats it? thats all you've got? an assumption

http://collegetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Ashton-Kutcher-laughing.gif

hillarious


Are there any words longer than 4 letters that you actually understand.


of course ... do you understand what His existence is beyond doubt. There is far more evidence for Jesus' existence than most figures of antiquity means?


Yes, it is called the restating of a well established fact of history. It is not 'making a claim'.  Try using words with a degree of precision and the world makes a lot more sense.




"beyond doubt", and now "fact".

Oh, this just gets better and better.



Your cynicism suits you well.  It encompasses and arrogant and yet clearly bereft soul.

For all your words, you never actually seem to engage the debate, just stand around trying to look smart and I am sure some do think so, but the clever see you as someone of little substance or consequence. I've not yet once seen you formulate an argument on anything at all that goes beyond mindless pedantry of a word or phrase that you mis-use anyhow.

In a public debate with rules and moderators you would die in seconds. I submit that it is actually impossible to prove anything to you - not because you are very clever, but rather because you are very stupid.




Nobody has.  Grin
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #106 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:54pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #107 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:54pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #108 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:58pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:43pm:
But gullibility, when it comes to religious artefacts, has been with Christendom since even before Constantine the Great's mother, Helena, went on a trek to Palestine to find the true cross and to Sinai to locate the site of the burning bush.

The Shroud of Turin?

The Arc of the Covenant claimed to be in that church in Ethiopia.

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.



The provenance of a lot of "relics" is rather suspect.  What is important though, is not the relic itself.  But if, for example, a 2,000 year old fragment of bone is purported to be the finger of a Saint and that helps someone with their faith, is it really such a bad thing?
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #109 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:00pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #110 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:00pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #111 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:03pm
 
Frances wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 9:54pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:34am:
There are some so gullible, that they believe Jesus Christ actually existed 2000 years ago.


Flavius Josephus (37AD – c. 100AD), a Romano-Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD.   In The Antiquities of the Jews, he wrote:
Quote:
Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.


Tacitus, a Roman Historian (55AD -120AD.  In his Annals he wrote of a fire that burned a large part of Rome:
Quote:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.


Pliny the Elder, in correspondence with the Emperor Trajan, wrote:
Quote:
They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal–but ordinary and innocent food.


Lucian of Samosate (Born 115 AD), Greek satirist and lecturer wrote:
Quote:
He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world. “Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws. “They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.


Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus a Roman historian active around the beginning of the second century (he died in 130AD), in De Vita Caesarum wrote:
Quote:
The emperor Claudius reigned 41 to 54 AD. Suetonius reports his dealings with the eastern Roman Empire, that is, with Greece and Macedonia, and with the Lycians, Rhodians, and Trojans. He then reports that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ” (Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit). The name appears in manuscripts of Suetonius as Chrestus, a form also used by the Roman historian Tacitus to refer to Chrestiani.


none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?


by the way, I do believe that a 'man' called Jesus was crucified on the cross .... there are records of it happening ... my problem is that the Romans, the greatest record keepers of their era, only ever mentioned Jesus that one time ... no where else was he ever mentioned in any Roman records  ..... surely if half the miracles attributed to him were true, the romans would have some records of it somewhere?? a man turns water to wine? walks on water? feeds hundreds with 3 fish? or any of the other wonders attributed to Jesus ..... there are a lot of records of less important more mundane things, why not any of the things he did at the time he did them?
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #112 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:06pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:03pm:
surely if half the miracles attributed to him were true, the romans would have some records of it somewhere??


It was 2000 years ago.  What kind of records did you want?  His drivers license, passport and tax file number?
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #113 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:08pm
 
Frances wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:58pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:43pm:
But gullibility, when it comes to religious artefacts, has been with Christendom since even before Constantine the Great's mother, Helena, went on a trek to Palestine to find the true cross and to Sinai to locate the site of the burning bush.

The Shroud of Turin?

The Arc of the Covenant claimed to be in that church in Ethiopia.

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.



The provenance of a lot of "relics" is rather suspect.  What is important though, is not the relic itself.  But if, for example, a 2,000 year old fragment of bone is purported to be the finger of a Saint and that helps someone with their faith, is it really such a bad thing?

Not at all.

I was listening to William Dalrymple discussing his book 'Nine Lives: In Search of the Sacred in Modern India' where he relates the story of a religious icon maker who was finishing a Ganesha (I think). The purchaser came into his workshop to watch the completion of the statue (which always ends with the casting of the eyes). When the eyes were stamped in, the buyer went into a religious frenzy (as they believe the god comes to life when the eyes are cast).

To those of faith, these icons / artefacts clearly focus the believer's mind... They don't have to be authentic in the scientific sense to have that effect.
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #114 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:08pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #115 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:08pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #116 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:17pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:03pm:
none of whom were alive when Jesus was there


Rather disingenuous of you to ignore whatever evidence there is and ask for something you know doesn't exist.  Ancient Roman archives?  What Ancient Roman archives?
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #117 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:18pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #118 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:19pm
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #119 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:35pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:03pm:
none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?


by the way, I do believe that a 'man' called Jesus was crucified on the cross .... there are records of it happening ... my problem is that the Romans, the greatest record keepers of their era, only ever mentioned Jesus that one time ... no where else was he ever mentioned in any Roman records  ..... surely if half the miracles attributed to him were true, the romans would have some records of it somewhere?? a man turns water to wine? walks on water? feeds hundreds with 3 fish? or any of the other wonders attributed to Jesus ..... there are a lot of records of less important more mundane things, why not any of the things he did at the time he did them?


Then why get suckered into one of gregs stupid games? Right back at the start I said this;

"historians overwhelmingly support the factual existence of a man named Jesus 2000 years ago. Sure many won't believe him to be the Son of God, but they don't doubt the man himself existed."

The peccahead started the game with his comment that only gullible people believe Jesus existed. That's when it moved to the discussion of how mainstream historians accept that a real man named Jesus existed 2000 years ago. The only question for debate is who exactly was this man and what did he do. For people like greggery (and the idiot cyborg cat) not even the first part (a man named Jesus is in the historical record) is to be accepted. That's what kept this thing going.

All the big names of history have a level of myth around them. Some of it may be true, some of it may be made up. People will debate and have personal opinions as to what is true and what is not. But the question as to whether the person actually existed is something different. If anyone wants to argue that the Jesus as recorded in history didn't exist then the onus is on them to argue it. Just like if anyone wants to argue that people of history such as Plato, Julius Caesar, Shakespeare, etc, don't exist, then the onus is on them to prove the historical record is wrong. They are the ones arguing against the mainstream. If anyone wants to argue that Jesus didn't perform any miracles but was just an ordinary mortal man, then fine. Many historians have that same view, and it simple fits into the myth area of the man, not the historical record of the mans existence.

If pecca wants to argue that Jesus didn't exist at all and mock anyone who says otherwise, then it is him against the history books.


PS. Congrats on 20,000 posts. Not a bad effort.
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