Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #240 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 10:06am

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 10:01am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:56am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:54am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:36am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02am:

Peccy, John Smith, and SOB haven't as yet refuted Frances post #96.

Post #96 doesn't prove the existence of JC.

It merely proves that a few people wrote about a character called JC.

There are many, many authors who have written about dragons, fairies, unicorns, and goblins. However, that doesn't mean that dragons, fairies, unicorns, and goblins actually exist.

You need to explain why the sources aren't credible.

I don't need to do anything.

Yes you do.

No, I don't.

The believers need to provide evidence that JC was a real person.

I'm still waiting.

Because we are dealing with the past, and before cameras, all we have is the literature. Sources have been provided, you need to explain why they are not credible.

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The_Barnacle

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #241 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 10:35am

Frances wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 9:54pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 11:34am:

There are some so gullible, that they believe Jesus Christ actually existed 2000 years ago.

Flavius Josephus (37AD – c. 100AD), a Romano-Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD. In The Antiquities of the Jews, he wrote:
Quote:

Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

I think it is quite possible that Jesus Christ actually existed 2000 years ago. He may have even been crucified by the Romans (after all a lot of people did get crucified back then). But I think that Jesus would have been just an ordinary man. None of those supernatural events like the virgin birth or the resurrection actually happened. They were just created by superstitious people.

For those who have seen "Life of Brian" I think that there is a great deal of truth to it's proposition about how Christianity started.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #242 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 11:30am Even if he never existed, he still made a bigger mark on the world than you ever will.
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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #243 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:29pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02am:

Peccy, John Smith, and SOB haven't as yet refuted Frances post #96.

Actually, I did.

none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74446 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #244 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:30pm ... wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 11:30am: Even if he never existed, he still made a bigger mark on the world than you ever will. did you think that one up all on your lonesome?
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #245 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:50pm You'd have to be a pretty weak front bottom to be jeaous of a fictional character.
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #246 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 6:56pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:29pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02am:

Peccy, John Smith, and SOB haven't as yet refuted Frances post #96.

Actually, I did.

none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?

This only can only apply to those reporting the carbon tax. It has nothing to do with the sources in question.

The Romans, Jews, and Greeks had a written language.

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #247 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 7:14pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 6:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:29pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02am:

Peccy, John Smith, and SOB haven't as yet refuted Frances post #96.

Actually, I did.

none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?

This only can only apply to those reporting the carbon tax. It has nothing to do with the sources in question.

The Romans, Jews, and Greeks had a written language.

yes and?

writing about something that they didn't witness and weren't a party to, at least 50 yrs after the fact and in some cases many more, hardly makes them the most reliable source of information now does it. Much more likely to fall into the fairly tale realm than anything based on reality.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #248 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 7:27pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 7:14pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 6:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:29pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02am:

Peccy, John Smith, and SOB haven't as yet refuted Frances post #96.

Actually, I did.

none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?

This only can only apply to those reporting the carbon tax. It has nothing to do with the sources in question.

The Romans, Jews, and Greeks had a written language.

yes and?

writing about something that they didn't witness and weren't a party to, at least 50 yrs after the fact and in some cases many more, hardly makes them the most reliable source of information now does it. Much more likely to fall into the fairly tale realm than anything based on reality.

The vast majority of what we read are secondary sources - sources that write on a phenomena/event whilst not present at the phenomena/event in question. Still, this doesn't refute the sources in question. In fact, you've not spoken about them directly. You keep dancing around the edges saying 'this stuff over here is crap, therefore those sources over there are crap'. You can see this is not a refutation of the sources in question, can't you?

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #249 - Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 7:37pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 7:27pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 7:14pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 6:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 4:29pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02am:

Peccy, John Smith, and SOB haven't as yet refuted Frances post #96.

Actually, I did.

none of whom were alive when Jesus was there .... some people today can't even get the true story re the carbon tax out and that was 2 yrs ago and we've hundreds of written records as proof... what hope have you of getting a true story out 50 yrs after the fact, especially in a time when most of the stories were passed down by word of mouth ? you ever played Chinese whispers?

This only can only apply to those reporting the carbon tax. It has nothing to do with the sources in question.

The Romans, Jews, and Greeks had a written language.

yes and?

writing about something that they didn't witness and weren't a party to, at least 50 yrs after the fact and in some cases many more, hardly makes them the most reliable source of information now does it. Much more likely to fall into the fairly tale realm than anything based on reality.

The vast majority of what we read are secondary sources - sources that write on a phenomena/event whilst not present at the phenomena/event in question. Still, this doesn't refute the sources in question. In fact, you've not spoken about them directly. You keep dancing around the edges saying 'this stuff over here is crap, therefore those sources over there are crap'. You can see this is not a refutation of the sources in question, can't you?

I'm not dancing over anything ... I am merely using what happens today to highlight what may have happened over 2000 yrs ago ... Or do you think that 2000 yrs ago story tellers never exaggerated or embellished their stories? Grin

It's not for me to prove anyone is lying, the claim was made that their exists ample poof that Jesus of the bible existed, in fact the claim was that there was more proof of that than of any other historical event (don't quote me, I may have the wording out a little, but the gist of it is the same) ....

The stories could very well be right, but if all this proof exists, fine, prove it.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #250 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 5:57am

There is no one more zealous and closed minded on the subject of religion , than the zealous atheist.
This I always find somewhat amusing.
I can understand those of faith being really really committed to the cause as their life vision.
But to be really really committed to Not believing something seems odd.

Re the Buddha, come at me with allegations that he is a made up character. I think he was followed by a troop of several hundred monks who wrote down every word he said for his entire wandering lecturing life.
They held a massive conference upon his death to analyse the data and maintained its purity thru to modern times.
Nearly all of what the Buddha said seems to have been said by Jesus some 500 years later and 7000 kilometres to the west.
Maybe Jesus found a copy of Buddhas scrolls in the desert during his 40 days of fasting.
Jesus message reveals divine inspiration.
Shakespeare's, mozarts, bachs , de vincis......these are all inspired works. It is crazy to be pedantic over whether these guys existed. Just enjoy their gift. The bible is a gift. You're just a nutty loon like these grail seekers if you can't see that ,

Do you really think a book would last this long if it offered nothing.
Think there will be 100,000,000 copies of Harry potter being printed 2000 years from now.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #251 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 6:27am .
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #252 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 6:29am .
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #253 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 6:37am

Frances wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 9:54pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 11:34am:

There are some so gullible, that they believe Jesus Christ actually existed 2000 years ago.

Flavius Josephus (37AD – c. 100AD), a Romano-Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD. In The Antiquities of the Jews, he wrote:
Quote:

Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Tacitus, a Roman Historian (55AD -120AD. In his Annals he wrote of a fire that burned a large part of Rome:
Quote:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Pliny the Elder, in correspondence with the Emperor Trajan, wrote:
Quote:

They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal–but ordinary and innocent food.

Lucian of Samosate (Born 115 AD), Greek satirist and lecturer wrote:
Quote:

He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world. “Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws. “They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus a Roman historian active around the beginning of the second century (he died in 130AD), in De Vita Caesarum wrote:
Quote:

The emperor Claudius reigned 41 to 54 AD. Suetonius reports his dealings with the eastern Roman Empire, that is, with Greece and Macedonia, and with the Lycians, Rhodians, and Trojans. He then reports that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ” (Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit). The name appears in manuscripts of Suetonius as Chrestus, a form also used by the Roman historian Tacitus to refer to Chrestiani.

So religious ppl quote fairy tales?

SOB

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #254 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 6:52am

The issue of Jesus' historicity is just one in a line of alleged historical figures whose historicity is also in question.

But there is none more poignant and relevant today for a nation than the current debate over the historicity of Moses.

For Israelis (Jews) his existence would be a very convenient truth, if they can lay the deepest claim to the land they call Israel... He was its 'founding father', as important to them as Mohammed is to Muslims.

However, no archaeological (or any scientific) evidence has ever been uncovered to prove or suggest that he ever existed and nearly every Israeli archaeologist accepts he probably didn't.

Forget the miracles, There appears to have been no Exodus from Egypt, no record at all of Rammesses II emancipating the Jews, then changing his mind and chasing them through the desert.

Tradition is all they have. For the Christians, with Jesus, the same... For the Buddhists, with Siddhartha, the same... And, I'd bet, for Mohammed the same as well.

Their existence cannot be scientifically proved (or disproved)... And they don't need to be. Their existence as ancient traditional folklore has the same effect on believers (and always has) as the Greek gods on Olympus had to the ancient Greeks (and possibly still has a cultural effect on modern Greeks today).

If it could be demonstrated that Socrates, Plato and Aristotle probably didn't exist, would it have any relevance at all on modern European culture with its philosophical traditions? ... They were, after all, the founding fathers of Western culture.

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