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How gullible are some people? (Read 49410 times)
Soren
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #285 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 10:42pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:34am:
John Smith wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:22am:
Yadda wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:13am:
In my experience, reality exists within ideas, more so, than within this world


ok, so he existed in someones mind rather than in reality .,...  thats what I thought

read the bible, several time, although many years ago , attended catholic school , was even an alter boy for a couple of years .... so this assumption that only those who've never read the bible don't believe is a load of bollocks



I've read it twice, from cover to cover.


BS. 

greggerypeccary
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You are a narcissitic fantasist, a cover-to-cover Bible reading pre-adolescent gourmand and newspaper reader (correct newspapers only, of course).

A sad old f vck, in other words.



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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #286 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 11:07pm
 
Quantum wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:25pm:


Quote:
All these monkeys who say his existence is irrefutable please prove that the stories been passed down by word of mouth were in fact about Jesus and not Horus ....


They were not passed down by word of mouth. They were written down.
written down decades if not centuries after the event ....




Quote:
especially given that the story of Jesus is centered during the middle of the Roman Empire, an empire famous for adoptiong and adapting other religions. Is it inconceivable that the romans adopted the story and made adjustments to names etc to suit their own peoples?


If you ignore the near 300 years in which Christians were killed by the Romans until it become a Roman religion.
I ignore nothing ... I already told you the Romans adopted and adapted whatever was the local religion in the area they were occupying



[/quote]

There is still a massive hole in the timeline of your suggestion.

How can the Romans get the Horus story, change the name to Jesus and make it a new religion, when Christianity already existed for 3 centuries before the Romans accepted Christianity?

Or are you suggesting that the Romans created Christianity from the Horus story in the 1st century, and then spent the next 3 centuries trying to destroy their own created religion until deciding to accept it in the 4th century? 

I fail to see how you can not be ignoring the near 300 year persecution of Christians by the Romans if maintaining that the Romans simply adopted the Horus story.


Again this brings us back to the future historian and the World War 2 example. Most of our knowledge of World War 2 in books are those which have been written after the war. But these books where written by people who either witnessed or who investigated primary sources but did not put pen to paper till many years later. We accept this delay as perfectly normal and something inevitable. Why is this such a big issue in the ancient world? If someone witnessed Jesus and wrote their account decades latter, how is that any different to Albert Speers writing his account decades later? Is Weinberg's historical work of the War to be dismissed because it was not written until over half a century after the fact? If not, why dismiss an ancient writing that to would have pulled information from other sources but was likewise written decades latter?

These arguments for taking Jesus out of history would require throwing all history in the bin as the standards being set disqualify everything. [/quote]


I'm not suggesting anything, I'm merely putting alternative scenarios from where the stories could have originated from. As to timelines, It's not an area I know a lot about so I won't comment. on it. The point is, someone earlier in this thread said the evidence was clear the the biblical Jesus was real ... fine, prove it. From everything I've seen on the subject its as clear as mud. 


Quote:
written down decades if not centuries after the event ....


In their final form. They would not have been passed down by word for decades.


Right, so someone told someone else a story who passed it on until it finally got to someone who could read and write, who then wrote it down .... except that by this point it had already been passed on by at least a dozen people. The majority of people did not know how to read or write so who was writing things down? Mary Magdalene? I'm sure a 2000 yr old prostitue knew how to write ...

Apart from that, the gospels you read today are nothing like what was written back then. They were not written in their final form. King James might have had something to do with that .... ever wonder why the vatican refuses to allow scholars to see many of the old manuscripts  that pre date King James that it keeps in its vaults? I've always  wondered what they say that the Vatican feels it needs to hide the truth. What is the vatican afraid off? That the truth will be their undoing perhaps?
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Gnads
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #287 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:22am
 
That's right a young Priest was allowed down into the catacombs of the Vatican to do some research..... He was gone so long they sent out a search party. They found him in an old vault with a manuscript in one hand, banging his head on a wall & repeating over & over........

CELEBRATE! CELEBRATE! It says we must CELEBRATE! You fools!
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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greggerypeccary
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #288 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:29am
 
Soren wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 10:42pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:34am:
John Smith wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:22am:
Yadda wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:13am:
In my experience, reality exists within ideas, more so, than within this world


ok, so he existed in someones mind rather than in reality .,...  thats what I thought

read the bible, several time, although many years ago , attended catholic school , was even an alter boy for a couple of years .... so this assumption that only those who've never read the bible don't believe is a load of bollocks



I've read it twice, from cover to cover.


BS. 

greggerypeccary
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Now I understand your fascination with me.


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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #289 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:35am
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #290 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:35am
 
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greggerypeccary
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #291 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 9:52am
 
Bread and Butter wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 11:29am:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/04/01/07/42/spanish-church-swamped-after-holy-grail-claim

I am rarely surprised at how gullible people can be.  Most people are stupid with occasional trips to competence.

This article wants you to believe that Jesus used a cup so ornate and so expensive that it would have only been in the Temple or Palace and even then used rarely as part of a Passover meal for a group of poor people?

There are no photos (obviously) no documents written to describe it and the Bible itself makes no reference to it other that "He took the cup".

How do people so gullibly accept that this could even possibly be true nevermind the implausibility of identifying any cup 200 years later on?

Same with salt-damp that supposedly looks like Mary.

I am a church-goer but I have never spoken to anyone as gullible as this. Who are these people?



"7:42am April 1, 2014"  http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/04/01/07/42/spanish-church-swamped-after-h...


"How gullible are some people?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools'_Day
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Quantum
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #292 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 11:07pm:
I'm not suggesting anything, I'm merely putting alternative scenarios from where the stories could have originated from. As to timelines, It's not an area I know a lot about so I won't comment. on it. The point is, someone earlier in this thread said the evidence was clear the the biblical Jesus was real ... fine, prove it. From everything I've seen on the subject its as clear as mud.


Yet you did with your suggested alternative scenario. Your scenario is not possible because the Roman Empire did not accept Christianity for almost 300 years after Christianity started. Therefore any idea that the Romans simply adopted the story of Horus is straight out impossible.    

Quote:
Quote:
written down decades if not centuries after the event ....


Quote:
In their final form. They would not have been passed down by word for decades.


Right, so someone told someone else a story who passed it on until it finally got to someone who could read and write, who then wrote it down .... except that by this point it had already been passed on by at least a dozen people. The majority of people did not know how to read or write so who was writing things down? Mary Magdalene? I'm sure a 2000 yr old prostitue knew how to write ...


How did you jump to that? The final form as written down of many letters would have been sourced from other writings. The final form as written down by many letters would was also have been written by the people of that time. There was not decades of story telling until it was written down wrongly by some ignorant stranger years later.   

Quote:
Apart from that, the gospels you read today are nothing like what was written back then. They were not written in their final form. King James might have had something to do with that .... ever wonder why the vatican refuses to allow scholars to see many of the old manuscripts  that pre date King James that it keeps in its vaults? I've always  wondered what they say that the Vatican feels it needs to hide the truth. What is the vatican afraid off? That the truth will be their undoing perhaps?


This is just ignorant myth. What the hell does king James (Protestant), the Vatican (Catholic), and the original manuscripts (The Catholic church does not have all of them locked in their vault) have to do with each other?   

We have Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that pre-date the King James bible by well over a millennium. As in 14-15 hundred years earlier. Where do you think they make all these modern day English translations from? They just get the King James Bible and change a few words? Roll Eyes What you just said is the same kind of crap you read on why the bible is a lie type web sites. Completely devoid of fact and anti Christian rubbish.

   
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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #293 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 1:38pm
 
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
Yet you did with your suggested alternative scenario. Your scenario is not possible because the Roman Empire did not accept Christianity for almost 300 years after Christianity started. Therefore any idea that the Romans simply adopted the story of Horus is straight out impossible.      


My suggested scenario was to highlight the fact that the truth of Jesus is hardly clear cut. Besides, Why is it possible for a story to be passed down for 2000 yrs, but not for 300 yrs? Where is the rule that the romans must have adotped the story at its inception?

Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
How did you jump to that? The final form as written down of many letters would have been sourced from other writings. The final form as written down by many letters would was also have been written by the people of that time. There was not decades of story telling until it was written down wrongly by some ignorant stranger years later


How did you jump to that? Quite a leap of faith you have their. Did they tell you they got the stories from writings?

Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
This is just ignorant myth. What the hell does king James (Protestant), the Vatican (Catholic), and the original manuscripts (The Catholic church does not have all of them locked in their vault) have to do with each other?


What does it matter which bible you compare? they all tell basically the same story and are based on facts that were passed down through the ages ... that means they are all the same , no?

And I didn't say the Vatican has ALL the original manuscripts locked in their vaults ... only the ones they don't want you to know about. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Quantum
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #294 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 2:46pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 1:38pm:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
Yet you did with your suggested alternative scenario. Your scenario is not possible because the Roman Empire did not accept Christianity for almost 300 years after Christianity started. Therefore any idea that the Romans simply adopted the story of Horus is straight out impossible.      


My suggested scenario was to highlight the fact that the truth of Jesus is hardly clear cut. Besides, Why is it possible for a story to be passed down for 2000 yrs, but not for 300 yrs? Where is the rule that the romans must have adotped the story at its inception?


You can't be serious. You went from suggesting that the Romans simply changed the Horus story to Jesus because the Romans adopted other religions and made them there own. When it was pointed out that the timeline does not allow for that you simply switched to saying you know nothing of the timeline but that doesn't matter because the Romans didn't have to adopt the story at its inception.

That just beings things right back to the start! 300 missing years where the Romans persecuted Christians before accepting it as the official religion. That still makes it impossible for them to have changed the Horus story and invent Christianity if Christianity already existed for 300 years! You can't have it both ways.   

Quote:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
How did you jump to that? The final form as written down of many letters would have been sourced from other writings. The final form as written down by many letters would was also have been written by the people of that time. There was not decades of story telling until it was written down wrongly by some ignorant stranger years later


How did you jump to that? Quite a leap of faith you have their. Did they tell you they got the stories from writings?


There are quotes from other writings. Creeds and tracts that are separate from the Bible that were spread around in Christianity's early years before the Bible was written. This is not a big secret, and it shows that written records from the time of Jesus were already is circulation.   

Quote:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
This is just ignorant myth. What the hell does king James (Protestant), the Vatican (Catholic), and the original manuscripts (The Catholic church does not have all of them locked in their vault) have to do with each other?


What does it matter which bible you compare? they all tell basically the same story and are based on facts that were passed down through the ages ... that means they are all the same , no?

And I didn't say the Vatican has ALL the original manuscripts locked in their vaults ... only the ones they don't want you to know about. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


If you don't know what you are talking about why bring it up? A comment like this;

"the gospels you read today are nothing like what was written back then. They were not written in their final form. King James might have had something to do with that .... ever wonder why the vatican refuses to allow scholars to see many of the old manuscripts  that pre date King James that it keeps in its vaults?"

Is total rubbish. What the Vatican has locked away has no importance on what the Gospels we read today say. We have Greek copies that modern Bibles are translated from that pre-date the vaults of the Vatican. Whatever is in there cannot effect the words on manuscripts that go back to the 2nd century. And what the bugger King James - a protestant King of England - has to do with what modern day translations of the Gospel say is even more bizarre.

What the hell are you trying to say? You are just pulling names out of your arse now pretending that you have some knowledge about this stuff. A complete ignorant would read what you wrote and perhaps think "this guy seems to know what he is talking about", but anyone who has studied this stuff can see you are just pulling bit and pieces from here and there, mixing it all together, and just hoping that it sounds intelligent. Well it doesn't, and it shows you have no idea about not just the history of the church, but just history in general.      
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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #295 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 5:29pm
 
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 2:46pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 1:38pm:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
Yet you did with your suggested alternative scenario. Your scenario is not possible because the Roman Empire did not accept Christianity for almost 300 years after Christianity started. Therefore any idea that the Romans simply adopted the story of Horus is straight out impossible.      


My suggested scenario was to highlight the fact that the truth of Jesus is hardly clear cut. Besides, Why is it possible for a story to be passed down for 2000 yrs, but not for 300 yrs? Where is the rule that the romans must have adotped the story at its inception?


You can't be serious. You went from suggesting that the Romans simply changed the Horus story to Jesus because the Romans adopted other religions and made them there own. When it was pointed out that the timeline does not allow for that you simply switched to saying you know nothing of the timeline but that doesn't matter because the Romans didn't have to adopt the story at its inception.

That just beings things right back to the start! 300 missing years where the Romans persecuted Christians before accepting it as the official religion. That still makes it impossible for them to have changed the Horus story and invent Christianity if Christianity already existed for 300 years! You can't have it both ways.   

Quote:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
How did you jump to that? The final form as written down of many letters would have been sourced from other writings. The final form as written down by many letters would was also have been written by the people of that time. There was not decades of story telling until it was written down wrongly by some ignorant stranger years later


How did you jump to that? Quite a leap of faith you have their. Did they tell you they got the stories from writings?


There are quotes from other writings. Creeds and tracts that are separate from the Bible that were spread around in Christianity's early years before the Bible was written. This is not a big secret, and it shows that written records from the time of Jesus were already is circulation.   

Quote:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:39am:
This is just ignorant myth. What the hell does king James (Protestant), the Vatican (Catholic), and the original manuscripts (The Catholic church does not have all of them locked in their vault) have to do with each other?


What does it matter which bible you compare? they all tell basically the same story and are based on facts that were passed down through the ages ... that means they are all the same , no?

And I didn't say the Vatican has ALL the original manuscripts locked in their vaults ... only the ones they don't want you to know about. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


If you don't know what you are talking about why bring it up? A comment like this;

"the gospels you read today are nothing like what was written back then. They were not written in their final form. King James might have had something to do with that .... ever wonder why the vatican refuses to allow scholars to see many of the old manuscripts  that pre date King James that it keeps in its vaults?"

Is total rubbish. What the Vatican has locked away has no importance on what the Gospels we read today say. We have Greek copies that modern Bibles are translated from that pre-date the vaults of the Vatican. Whatever is in there cannot effect the words on manuscripts that go back to the 2nd century. And what the bugger King James - a protestant King of England - has to do with what modern day translations of the Gospel say is even more bizarre.

What the hell are you trying to say? You are just pulling names out of your arse now pretending that you have some knowledge about this stuff. A complete ignorant would read what you wrote and perhaps think "this guy seems to know what he is talking about", but anyone who has studied this stuff can see you are just pulling bit and pieces from here and there, mixing it all together, and just hoping that it sounds intelligent. Well it doesn't, and it shows you have no idea about not just the history of the church, but just history in general.      


Only one problem there Quantum ... I've never claimed to have studied this 'stuff' and you've yet to prove that His existence is beyond doubt

you can make this about me if you like, or you can prove you aren't talking through your arse and show me all this evidence that puts it beyond a doubt?

(I'm betting your preferred option is to make it about me since we both know your chances of proving anything beyond a doubt are none and buckleys)
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #296 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 5:30pm
 
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 2:46pm:
What the Vatican has locked away has no importance on what the Gospels we read today say


how would you even know? god spoke to you?  Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Quantum
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #297 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:12pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 5:30pm:
Quantum wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 2:46pm:
What the Vatican has locked away has no importance on what the Gospels we read today say


how would you even know? god spoke to you?  Grin Grin Grin Grin


Another smart arse reply from someone who has shown they have no smacking idea what they are talking about and has no interest in learning anything either.

Just for anyone wondering why the Vatican (and certainly not King James Shocked) could have no impact on what the gospels we read are;

*Gospels written in 1st century.
*Fragments of copies from early 2nd century have been found.
*Modern Bibles are translated from the earliest and most reliable copies that can be found.
*The Vatican did not have power in this early time to tamper with the Gospels. The copies of the gospels that we have start from the early 2nd century. This is long before the Vatican could potentially change any words (and nearly 1 and 1/2 Millenniums before King James could of Roll Eyes).

Any BS claim like John's about the Gospel having been changed over the years are ignorant and ridiculous. This;

"the gospels you read today are nothing like what was written back then."

...is a BS claim. It is illogical. It simply ignores centuries of archaeology and historical scholarship, and not one bit of proof to back it up. The ones we read today are the same ones the church had in the 2nd century. How do we know? Because we have the ones from the 2nd century to compare them to!

"They were not written in their final form. King James might have had something to do with that"

More insanity. As stated above, King James and the Bible he commissioned was almost 1400 years after the earliest copies of the Gospels we have. Had he changed words, we would bloody well know about it. 

" .... ever wonder why the vatican refuses to allow scholars to see many of the old manuscripts  that pre date King James that it keeps in its vaults?"

As we have thousands of manuscripts that pre-date King James anyway, and as we have plenty that pre-date the days of Vatican power over the Church, none of this matters. It is like claiming the Shakespeare we read has been changed by the Nazi's. As the earliest copies of the the works of Shakespeare that we have pre-date the 1930's, so what if they did make changes? We would know anyway, and it wouldn't have one impact on the words of the pages we have in front of us.   




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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #298 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:16pm
 
There's nothing like somebody who is trying to convince you that something is real despite a complete and utter lack of evidence of that thing's existence.
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"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.
 
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Reply #299 - Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:34pm
 
Quote:


The Dead Sea scrolls are rather convincing to anyone without a preconceived idea.
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