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How gullible are some people? (Read 49397 times)

muso

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #315 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:08pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:09pm:

So no convincing record of slavery, Moses' existence, his relationship to Rammesses, Exodus, flight from the capricious Pharoah, 40 years wandering in the desert nor entry into Canaan.

Not that any of this would matter to an Orthodox Jew (or any observant Jew)... Cultural mythological tradition is paramount in these circumstances not scientifically provable historicity.

No. It would be unlikely, given that the texts were written around 600 BC, about 1000 years later than the period they describe. There were some elements of truth of course, but a lot of the earlier history was invented in line with the circumstances of the day.

Of course, it's quite possible that there were Canaanite slaves in Egypt at this time, because Canaan came under Egyptian rule. Hebrew was effectively a dialect of Canaanite. They were the same people effectively and worshipped the same gods. It was only after the influence of Zoroastrian religion that they became monotheistic. By about 605BC, about the time of the Babylonian exile of the Israelite ruling class, they were mostly monotheistic or to be accurate, at least monolatrous.

« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:19pm by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #316 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:08pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:09pm:

So no convincing record of slavery, Moses' existence, his relationship to Rammesses, Exodus, flight from the capricious Pharoah, 40 years wandering in the desert nor entry into Canaan.

Not that any of this would matter to an Orthodox Jew (or any observant Jew)... Cultural mythological tradition is paramount in these circumstances not scientifically provable historicity.

No. It would be unlikely, given that the texts were written around 600 BC, about 1000 years later than the period they describe. There were some elements of truth of course, but a lot of the earlier history was invented in line with the circumstances of the day.

Of course, it's quite possible that there were Canaanite slaves in Egypt at this time, because Canaan came under Egyptian rule. Hebrew was effectively a dialect of Canaanite. They were the same people effectively.

Although it would be reasonable to expect that had such a dramatic exodus of an entire serving class occurred in Egypt it would have been recorded. It would have had a catastrophic impact on the economy at the very least.

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

Israeli archaeologists are unable even to locate, with any certainty, Mount Sinai.

While this may be somewhat of a disappointment to religious Jews, it in no way undermines their conviction that the land they now call Israel is that which was sighted by Moses and proclaimed by him to have been promised to the Jews by Yahweh.

Conviction is the art of being certain

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muso

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #317 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:34pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

Do you know what happened around 1627 BCE? The eruption of Thera (Santorini). That would have resulted in the mother of all tsunamis. The Red Sea would have receded then surged as Thera erupted with the force of four Krakatoas. The ash would have resulted in global cooling resulting in widespread famines.

As I said, there is some evidence of historicity.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #318 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:38pm

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

Do you know what happened around 1627 BCE? The eruption of Thera (Santorini). That would have resulted in the mother of all tsunamis. The Red Sea would have receded then surged as Thera erupted with the force of four Krakatoas. The ash would have resulted in global cooling resulting in widespread famines.

As I said, there is some evidence of historicity.

Historicity of what? The exodus of an entire serving class? The defeat of an entire army?

Conviction is the art of being certain

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Mandy_oz

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #319 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:49pm

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:20pm:

Mandy_oz wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

I think Piltdown Man demonstrated in dramatic form just how silly and easily fooled people are when the outcome suits them.

Didn't it have machining marks on it or something? I guess some clowns will believe anything. It's called confirmation bias.

Yes, some of the teeth had obvious tool marks which would have lead a half-decent observer, nevermind a scientist to the conclusion it was a fraud. It is a sobering incident to remember when we think that a scientist is without fault, bias or error. They are no different to anyone else. We see often what we want to see.

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Mandy_oz

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #320 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:50pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:39am:

This is just ignorant myth. What the hell does king James (Protestant), the Vatican (Catholic), and the original manuscripts (The Catholic church does not have all of them locked in their vault) have to do with each other?

Quite a lot actually. The Vulgate and the Vetus Latina (what you are calling the Vatican) and the King James version are translations of the original Greek texts.

From what I have read of the King James version was far ad away the most scholarly (and poetic) attempt at a faithful and honest translation from the Greek. However, even the Protestant translators were not averse to modifying the text for (at the time) modern readers. The reuse of the old French word 'Host' replaced the more directly accurate translation 'army' (as in 'host of angels') which sounded more moderate, less militaristic, than 'army of angels'

Was it originally 'It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle' or ''It is easier for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle' ?

if the debate rides on 'host' vs 'army' then I thing the question is already decided.

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Mandy_oz

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #321 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:52pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:38pm:

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

Do you know what happened around 1627 BCE? The eruption of Thera (Santorini). That would have resulted in the mother of all tsunamis. The Red Sea would have receded then surged as Thera erupted with the force of four Krakatoas. The ash would have resulted in global cooling resulting in widespread famines.

As I said, there is some evidence of historicity.

Historicity of what? The exodus of an entire serving class? The defeat of an entire army?

it isn't proof. It is just a plausible support for the story. It doesn't mean it is true, but it does create a plausible scenario.

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muso

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #322 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:03pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:38pm:

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

Do you know what happened around 1627 BCE? The eruption of Thera (Santorini). That would have resulted in the mother of all tsunamis. The Red Sea would have receded then surged as Thera erupted with the force of four Krakatoas. The ash would have resulted in global cooling resulting in widespread famines.

As I said, there is some evidence of historicity.

Historicity of what? The exodus of an entire serving class? The defeat of an entire army?

No - of the parting of the Red Sea. It would have been a memorable event that would have been preserved in verbal tradition, then later embellished.

Every legend has some historical basis.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #323 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:07pm

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:03pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:38pm:

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

Do you know what happened around 1627 BCE? The eruption of Thera (Santorini). That would have resulted in the mother of all tsunamis. The Red Sea would have receded then surged as Thera erupted with the force of four Krakatoas. The ash would have resulted in global cooling resulting in widespread famines.

As I said, there is some evidence of historicity.

Historicity of what? The exodus of an entire serving class? The defeat of an entire army?

No - of the parting of the Red Sea. It would have been a memorable event that would have been preserved in verbal tradition, then later embellished.

Yes, maybe... But no record of the loss of entire army due to this event.

Conviction is the art of being certain

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #324 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:12pm

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:08pm:

No. It would be unlikely, given that the texts were written around 600 BC, about 1000 years later than the period they describe. There were some elements of truth of course, but a lot of the earlier history was invented in line with the circumstances of the day.

and therein lies the problem ... every time something is re written, it changes to suit the circumstances of the day, or the wishes of the writer .... you can multiply that tenfold when the story is verbalised rather than written. The truth of the matter is that the original story could be vastly different from modern versions ...

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Quantum

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #325 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:23pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:37pm:

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 7:54pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 7:06pm:

This discussion moved along way from whether Jesus the man was real or not many pages ago. Certainly since people like John started writing their own version of history and then expecting people to prove them wrong.

Not at all ... my request has always been that you prove that the evidence is irrefutable.

You seem to develp theories in your own imagination, and then argue against your own theories. .. its really rather simple

Provide irrefutable proof that the biblical Jesus existed

Why the hell should I or need to?

See, now you are starting to believe your own BS when you accused me of having B&B as a sock.

I have never claimed the evidence to be irrefutable, so why should I have to prove that the evidence is? I have maintained that there is evidence and that the evidence is accepted on the same standards as other historical people. I have also maintained that this evidence is accepted by most mainstream historians. We never have irrefutable proof for anything is history and I never claimed that we did.

The evidence is more than sufficient for myself. If you want "irrefutable proof" go find it yourself.

just as I though ... you couldnt prove anything.

To your satisfaction? No one ever could. You couldn't even believe the Holocaust happened by your standards. Anything other that witnessing something with your own eyes is not good enough.

Quote:

By the way, if you don't want to be held to account for someone elses argument, don't jump on and defend the stupid things they say.

That is one of the stupidest things said on this forum. You mix people up in a debate and instead of having the guts to say 'sorry, I thought you were the one that said that', it becomes 'its your fault for taking their side of the argument.' It is as bad as assuming I'm using a sock because you were too busy to check your facts.

All threads usually divide into two sides of an argument. Now everyone is responsible for everything anyone on their side of the argument says? What a load of shlt.

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #326 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:45pm

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

To your satisfaction? No one ever could. You couldn't even believe the Holocaust happened by your standards. Anything other that witnessing something with your own eyes is not good enough.

And you came to that conclusion how?
considering how confident you were about all this supposed proof, why have you failed to show any? I don't need eye witness accounts, just proof.

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

That is one of the stupidest things said on this forum. You mix people up in a debate and instead of having the guts to say 'sorry, I thought you were the one that said that', it becomes 'its your fault for taking their side of the argument.' It is as bad as assuming I'm using a sock because you were too busy to check your facts. All threads usually divide into two sides of an argument. Now everyone is responsible for everything anyone on their side of the argument says? What a load of shlt.

no stupid is reading some of the crap you come up with. you sound like you need a tissue.

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Yadda

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #327 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 12:27am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

muso wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:08pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:09pm:

So no convincing record of slavery, Moses' existence, his relationship to Rammesses, Exodus, flight from the capricious Pharoah, 40 years wandering in the desert nor entry into Canaan.

Not that any of this would matter to an Orthodox Jew (or any observant Jew)... Cultural mythological tradition is paramount in these circumstances not scientifically provable historicity.

No. It would be unlikely, given that the texts were written around 600 BC, about 1000 years later than the period they describe. There were some elements of truth of course, but a lot of the earlier history was invented in line with the circumstances of the day.

Of course, it's quite possible that there were Canaanite slaves in Egypt at this time, because Canaan came under Egyptian rule. Hebrew was effectively a dialect of Canaanite. They were the same people effectively.

Although it would be reasonable to expect that had such a dramatic exodus of an entire serving class occurred in Egypt it would have been recorded. It would have had a catastrophic impact on the economy at the very least.

Not to mention the catastrophic defeat of Rammesses army at the 'red sea' (or 'the sea of reeds' as has been contemporarily suggested).

The Red Sea crossing site, was between the eastern shore of Sinai peninsula and the west coast of the Arabian peninsula.

Do you see, about 1/3 of the way down the eastern shore of Sinai peninsula, that sandy outcrop into the sea ?
That is a vast sandy beach.
Yadda slept on that beach, in 1974.
It is the biblical red sea crossing site.

Quote:

Israeli archaeologists are unable even to locate, with any certainty, Mount Sinai.

No doubt because Israeli archaeologists have been searching for Mount Sinai, on the Sinai peninsula ?

But the biblical Mount Sinai is on the Arabian peninsula.

Paul knew where Mount Sinai was.

Galatians 4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia....

Quote:

While this may be somewhat of a disappointment to religious Jews, it in no way undermines their conviction that the land they now call Israel is that which was sighted by Moses and proclaimed by him to have been promised to the Jews by Yahweh.

Oh.

non,
Conviction is the art of being certain.

The Lod airport entry stamp in my passport, 1973-08-30.
I arrived in Israel, 6 weeks before Yom Kippur, 1973

entry-1973.JPG (96 KB | 43 )

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Quantum

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #328 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 12:37am

John Smith wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:45pm:

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

To your satisfaction? No one ever could. You couldn't even believe the Holocaust happened by your standards. Anything other that witnessing something with your own eyes is not good enough.

And you came to that conclusion how?
considering how confident you were about all this supposed proof, why have you failed to show any? I don't need eye witness accounts, just proof.

Others have already posted proof. You simply didn't accept it. So how would posting the same stuff again prove anything? Unless it is "irrefutable" it is not enough for you. I have already said there is no irrefutable proof for Jesus or anyone else in history. Your standards are simply too high for anything in history to be proved to you beyond doubt.

Quote:

Quantum wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

That is one of the stupidest things said on this forum. You mix people up in a debate and instead of having the guts to say 'sorry, I thought you were the one that said that', it becomes 'its your fault for taking their side of the argument.' It is as bad as assuming I'm using a sock because you were too busy to check your facts. All threads usually divide into two sides of an argument. Now everyone is responsible for everything anyone on their side of the argument says? What a load of shlt.

no stupid is reading some of the crap you come up with. you sound like you need a tissue.

Well stop expecting people to take responsibility for your fck ups. If you mix up in a debate who said what that's your problem.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #329 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 5:54am

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 12:27am:

No doubt because Israeli archaeologists have been searching for Mount Sinai, on the Sinai peninsula ?

But the biblical Mount Sinai is on the Arabian peninsula.

Paul knew where Mount Sinai was.

Galatians 4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia....

Muslims would be pleased!

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 12:27am:

Quote:

While this may be somewhat of a disappointment to religious Jews, it in no way undermines their conviction that the land they now call Israel is that which was sighted by Moses and proclaimed by him to have been promised to the Jews by Yahweh.

Oh.

non,
Conviction is the art of being certain.

Yes, you demonstrate that... Conviction is the art of being certain.

Your conviction is also a matter of religious faith.

You, no doubt, do not intend to offer any criteria of falsifiability, and is therefore, for you, not up for debate.

Conviction is the art of being certain

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