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How gullible are some people? (Read 49498 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #360 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:02pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:51pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:43pm:
He could not have done what he did without the idea of Jesus. But he never met Jesus. Jesus was already dead by 10 years before Paul took to evangelising and the only claim he had to 'knowing' was through his 'visions'.

As I said - what matters is your impact, not your self-appraisal.  Paul couldn't have elevated Augustus, the reigning god-emperor, to the same level, no matter what.  There was something about Jesus that surpassed everyone.

And as I have said, the historicity of Jesus is irrelevant... He could have been just an idea from the start... Paul's imagination of him is what counts. None of the non-Jews had ever heard of him except through Paul's evangelising... The Jewish diaspora had not heard of him either and knew only what Paul told them... At least until the Jerusalem Council started sending emissaries to try and undo the damage Paul was doing to their 'Jesus'.

Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:51pm:
This has not happened before or since.

Well, except for Muhammad, of course.
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Soren
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #361 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:13pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:02pm:
And as I have said, the historicity of Jesus is irrelevant...

You couldn't make this sort of thing up. You could not have a worldwide religion centred on a person as a person without that person.

Quote:
Well, except for Muhammad, of course.


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
This is an anticipated but ridiculous attempt at drawing a nonexistent a parallel.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #362 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:16pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:13pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:02pm:
And as I have said, the historicity of Jesus is irrelevant...

You couldn't make this sort of thing up. You could not have a worldwide religion centred on a person as a person without that person.

Why not?

Did Shiva exist?
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Yadda
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #363 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:17pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:02pm:
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:51pm:

This has not happened before or since.



Well, except for Muhammad, of course.




People on forums have often told me, that i'm too fixated on seeing just the black and just the white, of things.


Yeah, Black, and White.

Evil, and good.

Devil and God.

Darkness, and light.



Its a fault i guess.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #364 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:18pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:13pm:
Quote:
Well, except for Muhammad, of course.


This is an anticipated but ridiculous attempt at drawing a nonexistent a parallel.

Was there not something about Muhammad (like him or not) that surpassed everyone?
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #365 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:28am
 
muso wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
Saul of Tarsus (Paul) single-handedly brought Jesus Christ into prominence not only in the Western world, but also indirectly into Judaism as the greatest false Messaiah who ever lived, and into Islam as one of the great Prophets. Paul probably added the mythos that made Christianity stick.

Without the influence of Paul, would Christianity, perhaps in the form of Gnosticm, have taken hold?  - or would we have some alternative Greco-Roman Mystery Religion in its stead? The idea of rebirth/ reincarnation is common to most of them. For example, Demeter in the Eleusinian Mysteries.

Before he came to Rome, Paul spent a lot of time with the (Eastern) Greeks.

I think the idea of monotheism may have played a large part in the peculiar success of Paul's Christianity... This derivative of Judaism had the right pedigree in that it had its established ancient texts, it had been a monotheistic belief system for many centuries and had its prophets and its many ancient traditions and epic sagas. What was unpalatable to the Roman and Greek mind was its severity with its multitude of laws that did not make sense to non-Semitic people.

Enter Paul who was well prepared to reconstruct this still very Jewish sect into something that non-Jews could accept. The Jewish dietary laws were ditched, the rite of circumcision was abolished and, importantly (since Paul was convinced the world was soon to end), belief in Jesus as one's saviour sent by god, was all that was needed to be initiated into his new religion.

His teachings of this 'Christ' were so far removed from the Jesus of Palestine that the Jewish leaders were compelled to try to silence him. When he refused to desist in preaching lies and heresies against the sect, they disowned him and attempted to have him executed.

But there's no denying that Paul was clearly a master of persuasion and endowed with such gargantuan physical and intellectual energy, that the Jerusalem sect had no chance outside of their Semitic world of challenging or subverting him. He was, in every respect, equal to the likes of Plato in his capacity to persuade and, interestingly, early Christian depictions of the Last Day had Jesus releasing Plato and Socrates from the (by then) very Greek influenced underworld (hades) as the first souls into Heaven.

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #366 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:42am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:28am:
muso wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
Saul of Tarsus (Paul) single-handedly brought Jesus Christ into prominence not only in the Western world, but also indirectly into Judaism as the greatest false Messaiah who ever lived, and into Islam as one of the great Prophets. Paul probably added the mythos that made Christianity stick.

Without the influence of Paul, would Christianity, perhaps in the form of Gnosticm, have taken hold?  - or would we have some alternative Greco-Roman Mystery Religion in its stead? The idea of rebirth/ reincarnation is common to most of them. For example, Demeter in the Eleusinian Mysteries.

Before he came to Rome, Paul spent a lot of time with the (Eastern) Greeks.

I think the idea of monotheism may have played a large part in the peculiar success of Paul's Christianity... This derivative of Judaism had the right pedigree in that it had its established ancient texts, it had been a monotheistic belief system for many centuries and had its prophets and its many ancient traditions and epic sagas.

What was unpalatable to the Roman and Greek mind was its severity with its multitude of laws that did not make sense to non-Semitic people.

Enter Paul who was well prepared to reconstruct this still very Jewish sect into something that non-Jews could accept. The Jewish dietary laws were ditched, the rite of circumcision was abolished and, importantly (since Paul was convinced the world was soon to end), belief in Jesus as one's saviour sent by god, was all that was needed to be initiated into his new religion.

His teachings of this 'Christ' were so far removed from the Jesus of Palestine that the Jewish leaders were compelled to try to silence him. When he refused to desist in preaching lies and heresies against the sect, they disowned him and attempted to have him executed.

But there's no denying that Paul was clearly a master of persuasion and endowed with such gargantuan physical and intellectual energy, that the Jerusalem sect had no chance outside of their Semitic world of challenging or subverting him. He was, in every respect, equal to the likes of Plato in his capacity to persuade and, interestingly, early Christian depictions of the Last Day had Jesus releasing Plato and Socrates from the (by then) very Greek influenced underworld (hades) as the first souls into Heaven.



That's incorrect.

Judaism was not the precursor to Christianity and Christianity is not a 'derivative' of Judaism; that is a Judeo-Christian lie perpetuated by the Judeo-Christian churches. Whatever the religion was called that was practiced by the Ancient Hebrews it was NOT Judaism.

Judaism began with the Pharisees two thousand years ago and is nothing other than an extension of Pharisaism with the Babylonian Talmud, the Sepher Yetzirah and the Sepher Zohar as the main holy books. Whenever the jews say they read the Torah what they really mean is the Talmud.


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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #367 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:43am
 
My own belief regarding the idea of exporting the Jewish (Jesus) sect out of Palestine was to reunite the diaspora Jews back into the Jerusalem sect and perhaps make converts to Judaism from within non-Jewish communities. These rededicated Jews (who were starting to assimilate with non-Jewish cultures) and new believers would then have supported the Jews of Palestine financially and it was likely that the Jerusalem Council believed Jews could eventually stand as equals against Rome in culture and wealth.

Their crude understanding of Hellenised and Romanised cultures proved their undoing as Paul who attempted to follow their strict code realised quickly that the severity (and inanity to non-Semites) would not attract non-Jews. It was becoming unpalatable even to diaspora Jews who by then, I'd guess, were either ditching adherence to religious laws anyway, or were easily persuaded to ditch them with Paul offering them a new Judaism that did not require adherence to the laws. This would have assuaged their guilt at abandoning their religious roots and their ancient covenant with Yahweh.

In short, sending the intellectual giant among the non-Jews, Paul, was to make converts to Judaism to make the Jewish sect rich. It failed and Christianity evolved instead.

Were Jesus to return today (if he ever existed) and saw the Vatican, no doubt he'd wonder what god was being worshipped in St Peter's.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #368 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:49am
 
Taipan wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:42am:
That's incorrect.

Judaism was not the precursor to Christianity and Christianity is not a 'derivative' of Judaism; that is a Judeo-Christian lie perpetuated by the Judeo-Christian churches. Whatever the religion was called that was practiced by the Ancient Hebrews it was NOT Judaism.

Paul's evangelism was initially a faithful expression of Messianic Judaism. He deviated from it dramatically, but it was until then an entirely Jewish sect of the 1st century even if it quickly diverged away from its Jewish traditions.
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aquascoot
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #369 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:51am
 
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:13pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:02pm:
And as I have said, the historicity of Jesus is irrelevant...

You couldn't make this sort of thing up. You could not have a worldwide religion centred on a person as a person without that person.

Quote:
Well, except for Muhammad, of course.


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
This is an anticipated but ridiculous attempt at drawing a nonexistent a parallel.


Not too sure he should be thought of as a person (god probably shouldn't either). doubtful that he is some sort of cop or judge sitting at a desk waiting for us to hand in our CV's.
I think Jesus said this himself.  I am the way, the truth and the life.  more a concept to aim towards and aetheists should be made to argue about whether what he spoke is "the truth", whether his way is 'the way" to peace and happiness, whether his "life" is the best life.
I wouldn't be letting aethiest dumbies blow off Jesus just because they want to analyse him as a "Human" when his words reveal he was aiming for an analysis on a plane of understanding way beyond that.
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #370 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:59am
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:51am:
I wouldn't be letting aethiest dumbies blow off Jesus just because they want to analyse him as a "Human" when his words reveal he was aiming for an analysis on a plane of understanding way beyond that.

I'm not sure that the original Jesus sect had it in mind for their sect to be esoteric, that owes more to Christianity's ultimately Hellenic flavour with its Platonic overtones. If the Jerusalem Council had succeeded in their mission, the Jesus sect would have way closer to Judaism, if it was even distinguishable at all from Judaism by non-Jewish minds.
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aquascoot
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #371 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:22am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:59am:
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:51am:
I wouldn't be letting aethiest dumbies blow off Jesus just because they want to analyse him as a "Human" when his words reveal he was aiming for an analysis on a plane of understanding way beyond that.

I'm not sure that the original Jesus sect had it in mind for their sect to be esoteric, that owes more to Christianity's ultimately Hellenic flavour with its Platonic overtones. If the Jerusalem Council had succeeded in their mission, the Jesus sect would have way closer to Judaism, if it was even distinguishable at all from Judaism by non-Jewish minds.


The messiah as the head warlord of the jewish version of the Taliban.
Throwing the romans out of the holy land.

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Wink
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #372 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:35am
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:22am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:59am:
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:51am:
I wouldn't be letting aethiest dumbies blow off Jesus just because they want to analyse him as a "Human" when his words reveal he was aiming for an analysis on a plane of understanding way beyond that.

I'm not sure that the original Jesus sect had it in mind for their sect to be esoteric, that owes more to Christianity's ultimately Hellenic flavour with its Platonic overtones. If the Jerusalem Council had succeeded in their mission, the Jesus sect would have way closer to Judaism, if it was even distinguishable at all from Judaism by non-Jewish minds.


The messiah as the head warlord of the jewish version of the Taliban.
Throwing the romans out of the holy land.

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Wink

Very true. Simon Zelotes (the zealot), purportedly one of Jesus' apostles, would have been every bit an Osama bin Laden in temperament and mindset.

However, its seems probable that the Jerusalem sect, after the crucifixion, was attempting some kind of détente with Rome, at least in the short term... They all believed, including Paul, that the world was coming to an end and the Final Judgement was near.

The appearance of a Zealot within Jesus' closest confidantes (in every respect similar to a modern day Jihadi) was probably there as a foil within the more peace-seeking sect. Jesus could be then depicted as a moderate against Rome as he argues down the zealots.

I don't believe, however, that the Jerusalem sect had any intention of ditching their religion or truly easing their hardline against idolaters or non-believers in the one god. I believe it was a strategic move to obtain temporary détente with Rome until the day of judgement (probably expected within 40 years).
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #373 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 8:48am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:35am:
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:22am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:59am:
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:51am:
I wouldn't be letting aethiest dumbies blow off Jesus just because they want to analyse him as a "Human" when his words reveal he was aiming for an analysis on a plane of understanding way beyond that.

I'm not sure that the original Jesus sect had it in mind for their sect to be esoteric, that owes more to Christianity's ultimately Hellenic flavour with its Platonic overtones. If the Jerusalem Council had succeeded in their mission, the Jesus sect would have way closer to Judaism, if it was even distinguishable at all from Judaism by non-Jewish minds.


The messiah as the head warlord of the jewish version of the Taliban.
Throwing the romans out of the holy land.

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Wink

Very true. Simon Zelotes (the zealot), purportedly one of Jesus' apostles, would have been every bit an Osama bin Laden in temperament and mindset.

However, its seems probable that the Jerusalem sect, after the crucifixion, was attempting some kind of détente with Rome, at least in the short term... They all believed, including Paul, that the world was coming to an end and the Final Judgement was near.

The appearance of a Zealot within Jesus' closest confidantes (in every respect similar to a modern day Jihadi) was probably there as a foil within the more peace-seeking sect. Jesus could be then depicted as a moderate against Rome as he argues down the zealots.

I don't believe, however, that the Jerusalem sect had any intention of ditching their religion or truly easing their hardline against idolaters or non-believers in the one god. I believe it was a strategic move to obtain temporary détente with Rome until the day of judgement (probably expected within 40 years).



Religion and politics.....who'd have thought that they just don't mix Wink
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #374 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:17am
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 8:48am:
Religion and politics.....who'd have thought that they just don't mix Wink

Yep... Always and ever livin' together, like chicken and eggs...

(I'd have said bacon and eggs but... y'know kosher and halal 'n all!).

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