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How gullible are some people? (Read 49559 times)
Soren
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #375 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 10:35am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:43pm:
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:26pm:
Christianity took shape after Paul's death. Well after Paul's death.  He was influential because he was recognised as having the right take on Jesus, not because he rammed through some completely novel and incompatible version of him.

'The right take'??!! You mean he reconstructed 'Jesus' for a non-Jewish audience... And yes he did ram through some completely novel and incompatible version of him. That was the reason for his recalling to Jerusalem for a showdown with James. They had him arrested and he only escaped execution by appealing to Rome as a Roman citizen.





How is that ramming though and arm twisting?


Anyway, that's not really important. More interestingly, A.N. Wilson proposed the Pauline invention of Christianity in his 1992 book. The same AN Wilson in 2009:
http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2009/04/conversion-experience-atheism

"My departure from the Faith was like a conversion on the road to Damascus. My return was slow, hesitant, doubting. So it will always be; but I know I shall never make the same mistake again. Gilbert Ryle, with donnish absurdity, called God "a category mistake". Yet the real category mistake made by atheists is not about God, but about human beings."

Amen to that.

Read the article, it's well worth it. It illuminates the way we are talking at cross-purposes.




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« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2014 at 10:41am by Soren »  
 
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Soren
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #376 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 11:20am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:17am:
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 8:48am:
Religion and politics.....who'd have thought that they just don't mix Wink

Yep... Always and ever livin' together, like chicken and eggs...

(I'd have said bacon and eggs but... y'know kosher and halal 'n all!).





Wow! Another cliché trotted out as insight. What social activity does not involve politics?

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #377 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 11:55am
 
So anyway...

The historicity of Jesus is largely irrelevant. It is the Jesus of Christianity (as imagined by Paul) which is relevant.

The likes of Bishop Spong recognises this well. He has successfully jettisoned the myth of Jesus from the religious message as extracted from back-to-basics tradition (and no, not fundamentalism).

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aquascoot
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #378 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:28pm
 
Agreed north.
say in 1000 years , people start to debate "the historical figure of eintein" and we get a bunch of tossers demanding that we "prove" eintein existed.
It doesnt matter a jot.
His equations (yes, made up like fairytales) are relevant.
They are his "contribution" to universal truth (and represent scientific genius)
The recorded "philosophy" of jesus is his "contribution" to universal truth and refeclts theological genius.

The contribution is massive and is not diminished by nit picking over his existence. His theories are used by several billion people (as are einteins) and if they work, they work and if they didnt work, they'd have been ditched long ago.
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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #379 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:32pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:28pm:
Agreed north.
say in 1000 years , people start to debate "the historical figure of eintein" and we get a bunch of tossers demanding that we "prove" eintein existed.
It doesnt matter a jot.
His equations (yes, made up like fairytales) are relevant.
They are his "contribution" to universal truth (and represent scientific genius)
The recorded "philosophy" of jesus is his "contribution" to universal truth and refeclts theological genius.

The contribution is massive and is not diminished by nit picking over his existence. His theories are used by several billion people (as are einteins) and if they work, they work and if they didnt work, they'd have been ditched long ago.


not at all the same ... people who actually knew Einstein have written about him, and others base their writting on what Einstein himself has written ...

if someone decided to write about him in 100yrs based only on what they heard, how truthful do you think the story would be?
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #380 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:46pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:28pm:
Agreed north.

The contribution is massive and is not diminished by nit picking over his existence.

For that matter there is no more proof that Siddhartha existed, yet Buddhism is no less worthy because of it.

Its certainly true in Eastern traditions (and this is possibly the case in middle eastern traditions as well) that philosophy evolves over a number of decades or centuries with the advancements in that philosophy credited to its originator... Even if there is no proof the the originator existed in fact... He exists by tradition which is good enough for those who amend or extend the teachings.

With Christianity, I think that as it became more popular in the Roman world, questions were being asked about this central figure, Jesus, about which almost nothing was known. Hence nativity stories began to be proposed, with all their drama, to satisfy an audience hungry for such stories...

Nativity stories such as 'Born in a stable', 'the flight into Egypt', 'the killing of the innocents', 'the returning to Bethlehem for the Census' etc... etc...

None of these stories can be proved and, in fact, these nativity stories are almost certainly fiction (given they contradict each other chronologically) such as his birth being conveniently historically placed by being pushed back into the reign of Herod the Great (who was despised by Jews and Gentiles alike).
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Soren
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #381 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 2:03pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 11:55am:
So anyway...

The historicity of Jesus is largely irrelevant. It is the Jesus of Christianity (as imagined by Paul) which is relevant.

The likes of Bishop Spong recognises this well. He has successfully jettisoned the myth of Jesus from the religious message as extracted from back-to-basics tradition (and no, not fundamentalism).




Well, that's where he went wrong, with the jettisoning.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #382 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 2:30pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:32pm:
if someone decided to write about him in 100yrs based only on what they heard, how truthful do you think the story would be?

Yes, no doubt oral traditions are the least reliable by far...

With Jesus it is particularly intriguing that oral tradition was relied upon before Acts (i.e. there does not seem to have been a gospel or biographical account written about Jesus during his lifetime or directly after with the earliest accounts dating to around 70AD - about 40 years after his death and 25 to 30 years after Christianity began to be evangelized by Paul).

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #383 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:27pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 2:30pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:32pm:
if someone decided to write about him in 100yrs based only on what they heard, how truthful do you think the story would be?

Yes, no doubt oral traditions are the least reliable by far...

With Jesus it is particularly intriguing that oral tradition was relied upon before Acts (i.e. there does not seem to have been a gospel or biographical account written about Jesus during his lifetime or directly after with the earliest accounts dating to around 70AD - about 40 years after his death and 25 to 30 years after Christianity began to be evangelized by Paul).


You have to wonder how this miracle worker of major repute (if the late written gospels are to be believed) was not written about at all during his life nor after it until an energetic evangelist takes up his cause.

Not a word until decades after his death.

Even the Jews Paul encountered throughout Asia had never heard of him. No doubt many Jews in Palestine had not heard of him either.

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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #384 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:29pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:27pm:
You have to wonder how this miracle worker of major repute (if the late written gospels are to be believed) was not written about at all during his life nor after it until an energetic evangelist takes up his ca


and therein lies the crux of the problem I have with people claiming that the evidence is clear the the biblical Jesus was real ..... it is no such thing
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Soren
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #385 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 10:03pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:27pm:
You have to wonder how this miracle worker of major repute (if the late written gospels are to be believed) was not written about at all during his life nor after it until an energetic evangelist takes up his ca


and therein lies the crux of the problem I have with people claiming that the evidence is clear the the biblical Jesus was real ..... it is no such thing

well, you thing not authorised and unauthorised are different things so I wouldn't set much store on what you take to be the crux of anything.

Jesus was a real person as there is both biblical and non-biblical evidence for his existence. Whether you believe in his miracles is irrelevant to his actual existence.


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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #386 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 10:43pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 10:03pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:27pm:
You have to wonder how this miracle worker of major repute (if the late written gospels are to be believed) was not written about at all during his life nor after it until an energetic evangelist takes up his ca


and therein lies the crux of the problem I have with people claiming that the evidence is clear the the biblical Jesus was real ..... it is no such thing

well, you thing not authorised and unauthorised are different things so I wouldn't set much store on what you take to be the crux of anything.

Jesus was a real person as there is both biblical and non-biblical evidence for his existence. Whether you believe in his miracles is irrelevant to his actual existence.




I really don't give a fig what you think ... and once again, you are only reading the bits you like and ignoring the rest ... don't you get sick of the same view all the time with your head permanently stuck up your ar$e?

I have previously said that there was a real jesus crucified on the cross ... my problem is with how you link that Jesus, with the Jesus mentioned in the bible ... or did you think the name Jesus was limited to one man only? ...  you simply cannot link the two.
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Yadda
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #387 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 10:21am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

You have to wonder how this miracle worker of major repute
(if the late written gospels are to be believed) was not written about at all during his life nor after it until an energetic evangelist takes up his cause.

Not a word until decades after his death.

Even the Jews Paul encountered throughout Asia had never heard of him. No doubt many Jews in Palestine had not heard of him either.




NorthOfNorth,

You live and breathe.

You observe the world about you, and you form opinions about what you experience.

And you live and breathe.

You have passions for, concerning, the people in your life.

And yet the world is still there, in front of your eyes.

And you are experiencing all of it.

And you live and breathe.




Then one day, you, NorthOfNorth, you stop breathing.

And suddenly 'you', are dead.

Everyone in this world who knew you, mourns, for themself.

They mourn, that now they can no longer share and experience your presence.

Because that is what you are in this world - a 'presence'.





But now your presence has departed.

But 'your' body is still here.

So is 'NorthOfNorth' [the presence] dead, because NorthOfNorth no longer inhabits that particular clay house, that he once did ?

Is the entity which we know as 'NorthOfNorth',    .....now, a 'dead parrot' ?





NorthOfNorth,

All around you, you can see miracles every day.

In your experience of this life, there are so many miracles happening around you every day.

But to the eyes of men, what they see and experience [in front of their own noses], is just pap.

It is nothing.

It is just something to be endured, and hopefully alleviated.



Dictionary;
pap = =
1 bland soft or semi-liquid food such as that suitable for babies or invalids.
2 maize porridge.
3 worthless or trivial reading matter or entertainment.





Don't discount the miracles which you are witness to, every day.




Miracles are performed/facilitated today, by men too....

e.g.
Wifi.

I possess the technology to send a message, today, to the other side of this planet, almost instantly.

How does it happen ?

How it happens has been explained to me.

But if i had to replicate such a system, i doubt that i could.

It is all beyond my ken.

But is real ?

Or is it a miracle ?






NorthOfNorth,

Was Jesus a 'miracle worker' ?

Or was Jesus just a person, an entity, possessed of knowledge which we do not [possess] ?



And here we are [i.e. humanity], today.

So certain, that we [i.e. humanity] know so much about ourselves and our circumstances!       Grin




Psalms 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?


Indeed.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #388 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 11:24am
 
Yadda wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 10:21am:
NorthOfNorth,

You live and breathe.

You observe the world about you, and you form opinions about what you experience.

And you live and breathe.

You have passions for, concerning, the people in your life.

And yet the world is still there, in front of your eyes.

And you are experiencing all of it.

And you live and breathe.

Then one day, you, NorthOfNorth, you stop breathing.

And suddenly 'you', are dead.

Everyone in this world who knew you, mourns, for themself.

They mourn, that now they can no longer share and experience your presence.

Because that is what you are in this world - a 'presence'.

But now your presence has departed.

But 'your' body is still here.

So is 'NorthOfNorth' [the presence] dead, because NorthOfNorth no longer inhabits that particular clay house, that he once did ?

Is the entity which we know as 'NorthOfNorth',    .....now, a 'dead parrot' ?

NorthOfNorth,

All around you, you can see miracles every day.

In your experience of this life, there are so many miracles happening around you every day.

But to the eyes of men, what they see and experience [in front of their own noses], is just pap.

It is nothing.

It is just something to be endured, and hopefully alleviated.

Dictionary;
pap = =
1 bland soft or semi-liquid food such as that suitable for babies or invalids.
2 maize porridge.
3 worthless or trivial reading matter or entertainment.


Don't discount the miracles which you are witness to, every day.

Miracles are performed/facilitated today, by men too....

e.g.
Wifi.

I possess the technology to send a message, today, to the other side of this planet, almost instantly.

How does it happen ?

How it happens has been explained to me.

But if i had to replicate such a system, i doubt that i could.

It is all beyond my ken.

But is real ?

Or is it a miracle ?

NorthOfNorth,

Was Jesus a 'miracle worker' ?

Or was Jesus just a person, an entity, possessed of knowledge which we do not [possess] ?

And here we are [i.e. humanity], today.

So certain, that we [i.e. humanity] know so much about ourselves and our circumstances!       Grin

Psalms 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Indeed.


Thanks for waxing lyrical.

Would you care if King Arthur didn't exist to enjoy a movie about the legend?

Christian belief does not necessarily need an historical Jesus to exist any more than Judaism needs an historical Moses.

Belief is in the heart and I'd bet Christianity would attract untold multitudes to its cause if the Jesus was history was extricated from it, leaving only the notion of the 'good man' as it core protagonist.

Imagine there's no Jesus...
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Yadda
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #389 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 11:48am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 11:24am:

Thanks for waxing lyrical.

Would you care if King Arthur didn't exist to enjoy a movie about the legend?

Christian belief does not necessarily need an historical Jesus to exist any more than Judaism needs an historical Moses.

Belief is in the heart and I'd bet Christianity would attract untold multitudes to its cause if the Jesus was history was extricated from it, leaving only the notion of the 'good man' as it core protagonist.

Imagine there's no Jesus...






Quote:
I'd bet Christianity would attract untold multitudes to its cause....


helian,

Tell that to the worldly church [and the likes of Bishop Spong].......

But, oh yes, they already understand that.

And yes, they [the worldly church], do have that desire, to gather humanity to themselves.

IMAGE....
...

Matthew 7:13
....wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:




Matthew 7:14
......strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.i Quote:
Imagine there's no Jesus...


helian,

Yes, i know i understand that that, is a popular anthem - especially among the 'religious' leaders of this age.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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