Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #465 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 2:53pm

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 1:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:37am:

Why so many Christians get hung up on insisting on Jesus existence in fact is a bit of a mystery... They should take a leaf out of the Buddhists' book... Tradition and faith is what is relevant to the veracity of the teachings, not irrefutable fact... After all, isn't that the essence of religion?

"Why so many..." - I am not sure it's that many. Perhaps the officials of the Catholic Church would, publicly, speak about the literal truth of it all and some/many of the more fervent evangelicals, officials or not.

But I'd say most people (like Spuffort, for example, and most Anglicans) wouldn't be hung up about the particulars. They would know that it is the sacred story and the mystery that matter, not the forensics or the science of it.

Not sure I'd agree with that... In the US where the wackiest and creepiest versions of Christianity (American Evangelism / Fundamentalism / in fact any descriptor defining American Christianity) exist. These neo-Christian (perverse) transmogrifications of protestant Christianity, being, almost to a denomination, fundamentalist, would all believe in the literal truth of the Bible and (most especially) the historicity of Jesus, citing the New Testament as irrefutable proof.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #466 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 2:54pm .
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21727
A cat with a view

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #467 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:37pm

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 1:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:37am:

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:00am:

If you want to call ALL that into doubt, go ahead. It's you versus 2000 years of thinking, reading, writing and discussion.

Tell 'em, dickeaddle, where they ALL went wrong.

"Drink more piss... A million drunks can't be wrong" !

If only all religions were like Buddhism! Especially Christianity. And most especially Catholicism.

Me, i wish more Jews would read [their] Torah.

Deuteronomy 1:8
Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

But the Jews refuse to go in and possess the land, even to this day.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21727
A cat with a view

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #468 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:51pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 2:53pm:

....In the US where the wackiest and creepiest versions of Christianity (American Evangelism / Fundamentalism / in fact any descriptor defining American Christianity) exist. These neo-Christian (perverse) transmogrifications of protestant Christianity, being, almost to a denomination, fundamentalist, would all believe in the literal truth of the Bible and (most especially) the historicity of Jesus, citing the New Testament as irrefutable proof.

wackiest and creepiest fundamentalist versions of Christianity....

Its coz, in the US, still, many, many, Christians actually read their bibles!

That people individuals should open a bible, and begin to read [and begin to have a personal understanding of] its contents, for themselves!!!

It is shocking i know! Tongue

The Problem of Evil
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304541795/93#93
Quote:

......regards organised religion;

If you believe that the Book of Revelation, is the "The Revelation of Jesus Christ,"
then in that book....

Jesus said...

"...thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

Revelation 2:6
Revelation 2:15

Nicolaitans???

What does that word, Nicolaitans, refer to ?

'Nicolaitan', refers to those who [Nico] 'rule over' or 'conquer', and [the laity] 'the people'.

Jesus in Revelation, and, in the Gospels, said that he hated those hypocrites, who use the authority of 'religion' [turning religion into a 'beastly', false, worldly 'spirituality'], so as to rule over men.

Almost every religion of man does this.

Some religions [more than others] going to extreme lengths, to exert their authority over their adherents/devotees.

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Popes???

'Papa'?

"....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
"...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
Matthew 23:1-13

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #469 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 7:20pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 2:53pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 1:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:37am:

Why so many Christians get hung up on insisting on Jesus existence in fact is a bit of a mystery... They should take a leaf out of the Buddhists' book... Tradition and faith is what is relevant to the veracity of the teachings, not irrefutable fact... After all, isn't that the essence of religion?

"Why so many..." - I am not sure it's that many. Perhaps the officials of the Catholic Church would, publicly, speak about the literal truth of it all and some/many of the more fervent evangelicals, officials or not.

But I'd say most people (like Spuffort, for example, and most Anglicans) wouldn't be hung up about the particulars. They would know that it is the sacred story and the mystery that matter, not the forensics or the science of it.

Not sure I'd agree with that... In the US where the wackiest and creepiest versions of Christianity (American Evangelism / Fundamentalism / in fact any descriptor defining American Christianity) exist. These neo-Christian (perverse) transmogrifications of protestant Christianity, being, almost to a denomination, fundamentalist, would all believe in the literal truth of the Bible and (most especially) the historicity of Jesus, citing the New Testament as irrefutable proof.

Dunno. Looks like an easy generalisation to me.

Also, religious doubt is not primarily about historical facts or the lack of scientific foundations for miracles and the like. These are questions atheists and other religions raise because they are, by definition, not in the same spot as the believing Christians.

A very inexact analogy I can think of is the doubting the existence of Romeo and Juliet. There is a Juliet balcony in Verona that tourists like to look at. We all know it's not actually the balcony but we do go and visit it (I know I did) because it lets us think of the truth of the drama more concretely. Like a relic or an icon, it fixes the mind on the contemplation of the truths of the drama.
Doubting in this context is trivial because it distract from the truth of the drama.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #470 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:24pm .
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #471 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:38pm

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 7:20pm:

A very inexact analogy I can think of is the doubting the existence of Romeo and Juliet. There is a Juliet balcony in Verona that tourists like to look at. We all know it's not actually the balcony but we do go and visit it (I know I did) because it lets us think of the truth of the drama more concretely. Like a relic or an icon, it fixes the mind on the contemplation of the truths of the drama.
Doubting in this context is trivial because it distracts from the truth of the drama.

True. And a very exactive analogy, I'd say. (Yes, we can all create words...And right now I needs a new adjective... like the Shakespeare and the George W Bush!!).

You're right... Historicity is irrelevant. Its the 'Romeo and Juliet' of human experience that's relevant. Not the fact.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #472 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:39pm .
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

John Smith

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 74452
Gender: male

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #473 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:47pm

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:12am:

Are you trying to make SOB look bright? My reason for doubt is simple, no one has yet proven [highlight]to me[/highlight] that the two Jesus' we are referring to are one and the same. No one has given me a reason to believe that the hisorical evidence is correct. You keep using consensus as your argument but consensus doesn't prove anything. It proves even less when that consensus is based on faith.

Don't go getting upset just because you shot yourself in the foot.

I'll happily concede the point, as soon as you provide proof ... how about it?

The thing, pal, is that you are not significant enough for anyone to bother to give you anything by way of proof.

and yet you've spent 31 pages trying to convince me that I'm wrong and the evidence is there ... and you don't need to prove it to me, the church needs to prove it to anybody that asks ... there are millions that ask the same question or do you think they are insignificant too?

As I said, those who looked at the evidence agree that it's the same guy. I am not inviting you to bow to consensus - I am inviting you to look at the evidence these scholars have looked at and then talk.

those that want it to be the same guy agree its the same guy ... not the same thing as proof ... besides, are you one of the ones that argues that consensus doesn't prove anything regarding global warming? I could be mistaking you for someone else, but I'm pretty sure that was an argument used.

Looking at refutations only is only a half-job. You need to look at the evidence provided for the affirmative. There is no royal road (your "gimme proof") to understanding. Wide reading IS necessary.

I don't need to do anything ... the church wants to attract more members, it has to prove that its not based on fairy tales ... I really don't care what one believes one way or the other. Just don't make outlandish claims that you know you cannot prove or you will be called on it.

The other point you forget with regards to all this 'wide reading' is that it is all based on the same fragments of information that weren't written until decades after Jesus died .... It doesn't matter how many books exists telling me I am wrong if all the books have the same origin ... its the origin of the story I am questioning. If they write 1 million books from now into the future telling you that little red riding hood is a true story, does that make the story any more true? Future Sorens of the world and billions like him may all agree that it is true, but the story is and will forevermore remain a fairytale ...

As you were.

Back to top

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #474 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:48pm .
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #475 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:13pm John Smith wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:47pm: [color=#ff0000]and yet you've spent 31 pages trying to convince me Don't be ridiculous. You are irrelevant.
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #476 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:16pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:47pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

[quote author=John_Smith link=1396315783/437#437 date=1397081552]
Are you trying to make SOB look bright? My reason for doubt is simple, no one has yet proven [highlight]to me[/highlight] that the two Jesus' we are referring to are one and the same. No one has given me a reason to believe that the hisorical evidence is correct. You keep using consensus as your argument but consensus doesn't prove anything. It proves even less when that consensus is based on faith.

Don't go getting upset just because you shot yourself in the foot.

I'll happily concede the point, as soon as you provide proof ... how about it?

The thing, pal, is that you are not significant enough for anyone to bother to give you anything by way of proof.

and yet you've spent 31 pages trying to convince me that I'm wrong and the evidence is there ... and you don't need to prove it to me, the church needs to prove it to anybody that asks ... there are millions that ask the same question or do you think they are insignificant too?

As I said, those who looked at the evidence agree that it's the same guy. I am not inviting you to bow to consensus - I am inviting you to look at the evidence these scholars have looked at and then talk.

those that want it to be the same guy agree its the same guy ... not the same thing as proof ... besides, are you one of the ones that argues that consensus doesn't prove anything regarding global warming? I could be mistaking you for someone else, but I'm pretty sure that was an argument used.

Looking at refutations only is only a half-job. You need to look at the evidence provided for the affirmative. There is no royal road (your "gimme proof") to understanding. Wide reading IS necessary.

I don't need to do anything ... the church wants to attract more members, it has to prove that its not based on fairy tales ... I really don't care what one believes one way or the other. Just don't make outlandish claims that you know you cannot prove or you will be called on it.

The other point you forget with regards to all this 'wide reading' is that it is all based on the same fragments of information that weren't written until decades after Jesus died .... It doesn't matter how many books exists telling me I am wrong if all the books have the same origin ... its the origin of the story I am questioning. If they write 1 million books from now into the future telling you that little red riding hood is a true story, does that make the story any more true? Future Sorens of the world and billions like him may all agree that it is true, but the story is and will forevermore remain a fairytale ...

As you were.

I always thought you were not even shallow.

Now I have proof.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #477 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:16pm .
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #478 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:24pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:38pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 7:20pm:

A very inexact analogy I can think of is the doubting the existence of Romeo and Juliet. There is a Juliet balcony in Verona that tourists like to look at. We all know it's not actually the balcony but we do go and visit it (I know I did) because it lets us think of the truth of the drama more concretely. Like a relic or an icon, it fixes the mind on the contemplation of the truths of the drama.
Doubting in this context is trivial because it distracts from the truth of the drama.

True. And a very exactive analogy, I'd say. (Yes, we can all create words...And right now I needs a new adjective... like the Shakespeare and the George W Bush!!).

You're right... Historicity is irrelevant. Its the 'Romeo and Juliet' of human experience that's relevant. Not the fact.

Cheers.

Back to top

IP Logged

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74452 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #479 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 11:48pm Soren wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:16pm: I always thought you were not even shallow.Now I have proof. white flag accepted
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged