John Smith wrote on Apr 14^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:


oh for goodness sake. did you ever go to school beyond year 8???? Historians don't have an OPINION. They study actual evidence which is why they believe what they do.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:06am:

Can you not imagine that for every Christian 'saving souls' there are also millions of anonymous Christians sitting on their arse saving calories?

Im not referring to politicians or even popes. I am talking about the great mass of humanity in centuries past who have laboured largely in anonymity to serve their fellow man. the slave trade was ended by avowed Christians. the end of  child prostitution was by avowed Christians.  and so on.

All I am saying is that the large bulk of social improvement has been done by Christians and even today is still largely true. When you eliminate PAID social workers, who does the rest?

The history of atheism is 'gray'.

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 6:50am:

You paint a sweeping gray picture of atheists! Are they necessarily so down on these things? Are they necessarily so one dimensional?

I have mentioned Socrates many times and it was he who was accused of atheism at his trial and, although he countered that argument with some rhetoric that implied he may not be an atheist out of contempt for his accuser, he essentially was.

And yet his entire known life was dedicated to living ethically, morally and righteously. ("How should we live?").

Socrates' message was in part not to trust the legends of the gods because they may be wrong. He insisted (at least the way Plato imagines him) that belief in these legends of gods may not lead the young mind to a better life, but stultify it. And, although, he didn't invent philosophy (or science that followed it), he is, by tradition, the one that personifies the spark that ignited the Greek sense of wonder and liberated it from the bonds of blind belief.

The type of person you describe, is not necessarily an atheist, but one who is affluent and bored... Who has a stultified mind and is already half-dead... The very kind of mind that Socrates (the philosopher / atheist) would have felt the need to "sting like a bee the lazy horse".

Imagine the likes of Fred Hollows... Every inch the atheist... Would you characterise him as a perpetual fool and his legacy, mindless?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:24am:


why do you think that the argument that SOME aren't doing anything invalidates my argument? I say that as a rule, atheists don't do a great deal of social welfare and in most of history did almost none. try and argue on point.

Fred was a very very highly developed and passionate man. He was probably the exception, not the rule.
For simple folk in many countries, for the poor in Africa , belief in religion , is, I believe, a positive thing and if we are hell bent on tearing it away, where is the benefit.

the aborigines , a simple people, were often on church missions and singing and happy and etc etc.
I heard this morning that 16 young people in remote communities have commited suicide in the last 4 months.
How much better was their life under Christian tutelage, than under public service tutelage.

how much happier are the American negro community with their big gospel choirs and uplifting Christian churches, then the American negroes whacked out on crack cocaine or rotting in jail.

Christianity serves a useful purpose NoN.
Not everyone is mentally equipped to be a fred hollows.