Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #570 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:03am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:45am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Fred was a very very highly developed and passionate man. He was probably the exception, not the rule.
For simple folk in many countries, for the poor in Africa , belief in religion , is, I believe, a positive thing and if we are hell bent on tearing it away, where is the benefit.

the aborigines , a simple people, were often on church missions and singing and happy and etc etc.
I heard this morning that 16 young people in remote communities have commited suicide in the last 4 months.
How much better was their life under Christian tutelage, than under public service tutelage.

how much happier are the American negro community with their big gospel choirs and uplifting Christian churches, then the American negroes whacked out on crack cocaine or rotting in jail.

Christianity serves a useful purpose NoN.
Not everyone is mentally equipped to be a fred hollows. Wink

Gee, you're in dark waters now, Crocodile Dundee!

The poor in Africa? In the Lord's Resistance Army? Christian and Muslim Africans hacking each other to death?

Aboriginals on church missions singing and happy? (Not like them uppity desert n!ggers! Ours is happy and is laughin'

The happy Negro singing gospel and spirituals? Do you know where these songs originated and why?

For most of the last 2000 years, Christianity served its most useful purpose to Popes and Kings.

I'm pragmatic.
I still feel , on the whole, these people would have less "peace and happiness" if we banned religion and left them to their own devices.
Good points though. Religion , like politics , is an easy target. I still see a lot of Christians doing good work . Not too sure about the aetheists. They seem more interested in living life on the "fun" principle. Shallower than a puddle, most of them Wink

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #571 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:23am .
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #572 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:32am

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:03am:

I'm pragmatic.
I still feel , on the whole, these people would have less "peace and happiness" if we banned religion and left them to their own devices.
Good points though. Religion , like politics , is an easy target. I still see a lot of Christians doing good work . Not too sure about the aetheists. They seem more interested in living life on the "fun" principle. Shallower than a puddle, most of them

The thing with many philanthropists (particularly atheistic ones) is that they practice their philanthropy anonymously. Kerry Packer comes to mind. It was only after his death that his friends spoke of his incredible generosity (and not just the $100,000 tip stories at the casino). Other very rich men and women (who happen to be atheists) also contribute anonymously to worthy causes. One rich Australian I know contributes a considerable amount of money to charitable causes.

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aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #573 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am

NoN.
part of my day job is in the community sector and longweekend has an element of truth to what he says.

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.
I suppose the aetheists all have to be home to watch the do-gooders on Q and A and nod their heads in outrage about the evils of the Christian church.
Poor form aetheists.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #574 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #575 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:45am

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

NoN.
part of my day job is in the community sector and longweekend has an element of truth to what he says.

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.
I suppose the aetheists all have to be home to watch the do-gooders on Q and A and nod their heads in outrage about the evils of the Christian church.
Poor form aetheists.

how much of that is because christian charities are a group, and are therefore more suited to do some of the things you approach them for, whereas atheists tend to be loners?

when was the last time you saw a gathering of atheists?

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aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #576 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:46am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

That's a good point NoN.
I suspect many of them just innately enjoy being decent and the various religious groups are providing an avenue for this.
Still, no one else seems to be providing such an avenue.
Until the government sector can provide such an outlet (and I do bang on about community spirit a lot), then the church groups probably have a monopoly.
Why don't/wont the government sector "energise" the local community in this way.
Self interest.
All those director generals and AO 3,4,5,6,7 public servants have their livelihoods on the line.
if local communities took over the running of human services and social services, that's a whole lot of white collar workers given a yellow slip.
Wont happen. Cry

.

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aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #577 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:47am

John Smith wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

NoN.
part of my day job is in the community sector and longweekend has an element of truth to what he says.

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.
I suppose the aetheists all have to be home to watch the do-gooders on Q and A and nod their heads in outrage about the evils of the Christian church.
Poor form aetheists.

how much of that is because christian charities are a group, and are therefore more suited to do some of the things you approach them for, whereas atheists tend to be loners?

when was the last time you saw a gathering of atheists?

agreed. still they should organise. the bloke who started "clean up Australia ' has a good model.

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #578 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 11:22am

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

NoN.
part of my day job is in the community sector and longweekend has an element of truth to what he says.

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.
I suppose the aetheists all have to be home to watch the do-gooders on Q and A and nod their heads in outrage about the evils of the Christian church.
Poor form aetheists.

how much of that is because christian charities are a group, and are therefore more suited to do some of the things you approach them for, whereas atheists tend to be loners?

when was the last time you saw a gathering of atheists?

agreed. still they should organise. the bloke who started "clean up Australia ' has a good model.

so organise? whats stopping you?

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #579 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:19pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

Most of them are active involved members of churches. That pretty much implies they are Christian. And quoting Spong proves nothing. for every Spong there are a million others who believe.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #580 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:06pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Most of them are active involved members of churches. That pretty much implies they are Christian. And quoting Spong proves nothing. for every Spong there are a million others who believe.

And for every believer there are a million others who don't.

See! We can both play this game.

Belief in any particular god is not a necessary prerequisite for doing good (any more than it is a necessary prerequisite for being a pedophile)... It is certainly a motivator, no doubt (not for being a pedophile!) ... But theistic belief is not a sine qua non for benevolence or compassion.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #581 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:18pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Most of them are active involved members of churches. That pretty much implies they are Christian. And quoting Spong proves nothing. for every Spong there are a million others who believe.

And for every believer there are a million others who don't.

See! We can both play this game.

Belief in any particular god is not a necessary prerequisite for doing good (any more than it is a necessary prerequisite for being a pedophile)... It is certainly a motivator, no doubt (not for being a pedophile!) ... But theistic belief is not a sine qua non for benevolence or compassion.

except the figure is for ever believer there are NINE non believers, not a million.

And while doing good doesn't have religious belief as a prerequisite, observations would declare that it is still a very strong aspect.

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Soren

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #582 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:59pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

The thing about the Spongs of this world is that there had to be a tradition first, centred as it is around the 'Jesus myth' and built up over millennia. Religion without mystery and a leap of faith is not religion but mere historicist sociological theory (dread concept) which has never inspired or moved anyone. It may be ethical but it is shorn of the source of that ethics.

"Kierkegaard posited three stages of life, or spheres of existence: the esthetic, the ethical, and the religious. While he favored the term "stages" earlier in his writings, we are not to conceive of them necessarily as periods of life that one proceeds through in sequence, but rather as paradigms of existence. Moreover, many individuals might not traverse a certain stage, for example, the religious. The esthetic sphere is primarily that of self-gratification. The esthete enjoys art, literature, and music. Even the Bible can be appreciated esthetically and Christ portrayed as a tragic hero. The ethical sphere of existence applies to those who sense the claims of duty to God, country, or mankind in general. The religious sphere is divided into Religiousness A and B. Religiousness A apples to the individual who feels a sense of guilt before God. It is a religiousness of immanence. Religiousness B is transcendental in nature. It may be summed up by St. Paul's phrase: "In Christ". It consists of a radical conversion to Christ in the qualitative leap of faith."

http://www.sorenkierkegaard.org/kierkegaard-primer.html

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #583 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 2:52pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:18pm:

except the figure is for ever believer there are NINE non believers, not a million.

Interesting... Like the six degrees of separation... Enumerating those who link you (or me) to say, Barack Obama... Sometimes fewer than six, but never more... Bloody amazing.... 1:9 eh?

My grandmother reckoned if you picked off a wart, two more would grow back in its place... Not exactly like 1 to 9... But... Good to know for prospective wart pickers.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #584 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 3:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 2:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:18pm:

except the figure is for ever believer there are NINE non believers, not a million.

Interesting... Like the six degrees of separation... Enumerating those who link you (or me) to say, Barack Obama... Sometimes fewer than six, but never more... Bloody amazing.... 1:9 eh?

My grandmother reckoned if you picked off a wart, two more would grow back in its place... Not exactly like 1 to 9... But... Good to know for prospective wart pickers.

your figure of 1:1000000 means there would be 23 Christians in Australia. care to revise?

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