Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #585 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 3:59pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 3:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 2:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:18pm:

except the figure is for ever believer there are NINE non believers, not a million.

Interesting... Like the six degrees of separation... Enumerating those who link you (or me) to say, Barack Obama... Sometimes fewer than six, but never more... Bloody amazing.... 1:9 eh?

My grandmother reckoned if you picked off a wart, two more would grow back in its place... Not exactly like 1 to 9... But... Good to know for prospective wart pickers.

your figure of 1:1000000 means there would be 23 Christians in Australia. care to revise?

No, that's sounds about right to me, for Australia, Eddie... Lock it in.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #586 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 3:59pm .
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #587 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 4:10pm

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

The thing about the Spongs of this world is that there had to be a tradition first, centred as it is around the 'Jesus myth' and built up over millennia. Religion without mystery and a leap of faith is not religion but mere historicist sociological theory (dread concept) which has never inspired or moved anyone. It may be ethical but it is shorn of the source of that ethics.

Aw, I dunno... If by mystery and leap of faith you mean by necessity a literal god, demigod or man-god is required at its centre, I'd disagree.

Buddhism doesn't.

Yes, anything worth believing is indeed enhanced by a leap of faith as that alone is the progenitor of an eternal and seductively irresolvable mystery... But none of this necessarily requires a god.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #588 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 7:45am

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:19pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

Most of them are active involved members of churches. That pretty much implies they are Christian.

Well, its reasonable to assume they are probably culturally Christian.

Whether they actually believe in god or are agnostics is another question and one that, for many I'd bet, is a personal issue which they may not care to discuss... Particularly when they are motivated by an innate sense of compassion that they may not necessarily attribute its genesis to being from a god.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #589 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:09am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 7:45am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:19pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

Most of them are active involved members of churches. That pretty much implies they are Christian.

Well, its reasonable to assume they are probably culturally Christian.

Whether they actually believe in god or are agnostics is another question and one that, for many I'd bet, is a personal issue which they may not care to discuss... Particularly when they are motivated by an innate sense of compassion that they may not necessarily attribute its genesis to being from a god.

your position is just pure assumption based on your own biases. AS one who actually attends church and works with such people, your assumption is dead wrong.

'culturally christian' comprises about 60% of the population as from ABS census results.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #590 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:32am

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:09am:

your position is just pure assumption based on your own biases. AS one who actually attends church and works with such people, your assumption is dead wrong.

'culturally christian' comprises about 60% of the population as from ABS census results.

Well, my position is, that to be a practising Christian one is usually culturally Christian (excluding only recent converts to Christianity).

Yes, I'd believe 60% of us are culturally Christian... I do consider myself not only a cultural Christian but further - a cultural Catholic.

I do support charities, my personal heroes and those I admire are those who have the conviction, courage and compassion to make a positive difference in other peoples lives... Who help those who are so far down they can't help themselves. I don't support them because I believe there is a god (which I don't).

Whether some or many of your pratcising Christian friends harbour private doubts (if they're Anglicans, they're probably all agnostics anyway!!), who knows? Neither me nor you.

I worked with a bloke who was a lay minister in a Christian denomination... Turns out he confused his sexual attraction to needy vulnerable women seeking solace with his pastoral responsibilities.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #591 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:56am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:32am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:09am:

your position is just pure assumption based on your own biases. AS one who actually attends church and works with such people, your assumption is dead wrong.

'culturally christian' comprises about 60% of the population as from ABS census results.

Well, my position is, that to be a practising Christian one is usually culturally Christian (excluding only recent converts to Christianity).

Yes, I'd believe 60% of us are culturally Christian... I do consider myself not only a cultural Christian but further - a cultural Catholic.

I do support charities, my personal heroes and those I admire are those who have the conviction, courage and compassion to make a positive difference in other peoples lives... Who help those who are so far down they can't help themselves. I don't support them because I believe there is a god (which I don't).

Whether some or many of your pratcising Christian friends harbour private doubts (if they're Anglicans, they're probably all agnostics anyway!!), who knows? Neither me nor you.

I worked with a bloke who was a lay minister in a Christian denomination... Turns out he confused his sexual attraction to needy vulnerable women seeking solace with his pastoral responsibilities.

so by your form of argument you say that since you cannot know what a person really thinks you will assume them to not be Christian unless proven by a standard you have not yet determined?

That's just silly.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #592 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:02am

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

so by your form of argument you say that since you cannot know what a person really thinks you will assume them to not be Christian unless proven by a standard you have not yet determined?

That's just silly.

I'm surmising that many of those who attend church may not be as committed to a belief in a god (or at least an interventionist god) as their (dwindling) attendance suggests.

I'm not assuming that people who attend church are, by necessity, believers. They may attend for social reasons perhaps, or cultural reasons maybe...

I was brought up a Catholic and I know that many of my peers (as we got into our teens) and their parents were not believers, they were cultural Catholics.

We attended Catholic schools, however!

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #593 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

so by your form of argument you say that since you cannot know what a person really thinks you will assume them to not be Christian unless proven by a standard you have not yet determined?

That's just silly.

I'm surmising that many of those who attend church may not be as committed to a belief in a god (or at least an interventionist god) as their (dwindling) attendance suggests.

I'm not assuming that people who attend church are, by necessity, believers. They may attend for social reasons perhaps, or cultural reasons maybe...

I was brought up a Catholic and I know that many of my peers (as we got into our teens) and their parents were not believers, they were cultural Catholics.

We attended Catholic schools, however!

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion. Catholicism I very much a culture in its own right with belief in God almost secondary to adherence to the culture. But the rest of Christendom is in fact very different, Extremely different. Perhaps the Reformation hasn't yet resonated in your understanding yet.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #594 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion

is can be, but it can also be a good indicator of the bigger picture, and for you to discount it simply because he's talking about his experiences is nieve. I to, like NoN, know many who go to church weekly purely for the social outing. The also attend all the other church outings , picking cherries, warehouse shopping etc ... why not, lots of day trips with similar aged people at bargain prices .... better than sitting at home alone watching TV alone. (And the church knows it, thats why they organise these things ... to keep the numbers up). The only time they think about religion is when they go to church on Sunday, the rest of the week is a free for all.

For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #595 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:56pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

so by your form of argument you say that since you cannot know what a person really thinks you will assume them to not be Christian unless proven by a standard you have not yet determined?

That's just silly.

I'm surmising that many of those who attend church may not be as committed to a belief in a god (or at least an interventionist god) as their (dwindling) attendance suggests.

I'm not assuming that people who attend church are, by necessity, believers. They may attend for social reasons perhaps, or cultural reasons maybe...

I was brought up a Catholic and I know that many of my peers (as we got into our teens) and their parents were not believers, they were cultural Catholics.

We attended Catholic schools, however!

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Interesting... In your case that is tua culpa.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

Catholicism I very much a culture in its own right with belief in God almost secondary to adherence to the culture. But the rest of Christendom is in fact very different, Extremely different. Perhaps the Reformation hasn't yet resonated in your understanding yet.

A very contemptuous manner you have for a... 'Christian' ! Something akin to a Cromwellian Puritan or an Irish Catholic Bishop!

What personal experience do you have with Catholicism?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #596 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 1:14pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion

is can be, but it can also be a good indicator of the bigger picture, and for you to discount it simply because he's talking about his experiences is nieve. I to, like NoN, know many who go to church weekly purely for the social outing. The also attend all the other church outings , picking cherries, warehouse shopping etc ...
For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Had many a great uncle (and other Irish descent - generally male - relatives) who would attend Mass because that's what people did on Sundays. If you didn't you were a godless bastard and 'most likely put your poor wife through a blistering marl of a hell on earth' with yer drinkin'.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #597 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 1:39pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Seems proscription against hypocrisy was not taught at your Protestant school or church... Or maybe it was but you were sick that day!

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

My observation and experience continues to demonstrate that as a rule, people who complain about the past history of salvos or the like and carry on about failures and weakness of such groups DONT give at all to anyone. There ar ea few like yourself, but you are a rarity. John Smith proves the point.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #598 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 3:20pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

so by your form of argument you say that since you cannot know what a person really thinks you will assume them to not be Christian unless proven by a standard you have not yet determined?

That's just silly.

I'm surmising that many of those who attend church may not be as committed to a belief in a god (or at least an interventionist god) as their (dwindling) attendance suggests.

I'm not assuming that people who attend church are, by necessity, believers. They may attend for social reasons perhaps, or cultural reasons maybe...

I was brought up a Catholic and I know that many of my peers (as we got into our teens) and their parents were not believers, they were cultural Catholics.

We attended Catholic schools, however!

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Interesting... In your case that is tua culpa.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

Catholicism I very much a culture in its own right with belief in God almost secondary to adherence to the culture. But the rest of Christendom is in fact very different, Extremely different. Perhaps the Reformation hasn't yet resonated in your understanding yet.

A very contemptuous manner you have for a... 'Christian' ! Something akin to a Cromwellian Puritan or an Irish Catholic Bishop!

What personal experience do you have with Catholicism?

Catholicism and Protestantism is extremely different in theology, culture and history. I am not asserting a value here but rather a fairly obvious fact. You appear to ba adopting the logical fallacy of imputing a motive to the statement of a fact.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Yadda

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #599 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 7:26pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:45am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Fred was a very very highly developed and passionate man. He was probably the exception, not the rule.
For simple folk in many countries, for the poor in Africa , belief in religion , is, I believe, a positive thing and if we are hell bent on tearing it away, where is the benefit.

the aborigines , a simple people, were often on church missions and singing and happy and etc etc.
I heard this morning that 16 young people in remote communities have commited suicide in the last 4 months.
How much better was their life under Christian tutelage, than under public service tutelage.

how much happier are the American negro community with their big gospel choirs and uplifting Christian churches, then the American negroes whacked out on crack cocaine or rotting in jail.

Christianity serves a useful purpose NoN.
Not everyone is mentally equipped to be a fred hollows. Wink

Gee, you're in dark waters now, Crocodile Dundee!

The poor in Africa?

In the Lord's Resistance Army? Christian and Muslim Africans hacking each other to death?

NorthOfNorth,

To suggest, or to insinuate, that The Lord's Resistance Army, could be called 'Christians', or that The Lord's Resistance Army are following are promoting Christian principles in the world, is a little dishonest, imo.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 8:45am:

For most of the last 2000 years, Christianity served its most useful purpose to Popes and Kings.

Is that so ?

And what did Jesus say, directly, about such 'political' structures of men ?

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

So where is 'holiness', if holiness is not in men, and the religions of men ?

Numbers 16:5
...the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy;...even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Choose the spirit, choose life,

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Malachi 3:14
Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.i

In an earlier post, #554, you stated,

Quote:

Even a few of the popes were on record as not believing in god.

So what !

Because, in what sense were 'such' men [who came to that high religious office], pious men ?

Does becoming 'the' Pope [of the Catholic church], imbue a man with piousness ?

Clearly not, it would seem.

And i do not imagine that you would suggest such a thing.

But why does such a political structure exist in the Catholic church ???????????

You said it [answer that question].....

Quote:

For most of the last 2000 years, Christianity served its most useful purpose to Popes and Kings.

It is clear that Christianity [and many religions] are being, and have been usurped, by groups carnal men.

But that men have done that [the usurping], do the actions of those carnal men invalidate the principles of truth and justice that Judaism and Christianity are based upon ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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