Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #600 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 8:30pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 3:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

so by your form of argument you say that since you cannot know what a person really thinks you will assume them to not be Christian unless proven by a standard you have not yet determined?

That's just silly.

I'm surmising that many of those who attend church may not be as committed to a belief in a god (or at least an interventionist god) as their (dwindling) attendance suggests.

I'm not assuming that people who attend church are, by necessity, believers. They may attend for social reasons perhaps, or cultural reasons maybe...

I was brought up a Catholic and I know that many of my peers (as we got into our teens) and their parents were not believers, they were cultural Catholics.

We attended Catholic schools, however!

extrapolating from your own experience is always a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Interesting... In your case that is tua culpa.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

Catholicism I very much a culture in its own right with belief in God almost secondary to adherence to the culture. But the rest of Christendom is in fact very different, Extremely different. Perhaps the Reformation hasn't yet resonated in your understanding yet.

A very contemptuous manner you have for a... 'Christian' ! Something akin to a Cromwellian Puritan or an Irish Catholic Bishop!

What personal experience do you have with Catholicism?

You appear to ba adopting the logical fallacy of imputing a motive to the statement of a fact.

Not at all... I can see you're a hypocrite who likes spitting acid.

Spit away! But it won't make you happy!

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #601 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 8:30pm .
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #602 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:48am John Smith wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm: For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion. Sicilian Mafia Dons attending church comes to mind!
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aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #603 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:00am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:48am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Sicilian Mafia Dons attending church comes to mind!

I read a survey of Anglican pastors and nearly 50 % admitted privately they did not believe in an afterlife.
Their churches are more akin to a session with a kindly community psychologist.
Again, their parishioners probably get something useful out of this.
Even if its just lonely old ladies having a cup of tea and a bickie with other community members....where is the harm in that. I see it as a win/win.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #604 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:20am

aquascoot wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:48am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Sicilian Mafia Dons attending church comes to mind!

I read a survey of Anglican pastors and nearly 50 % admitted privately they did not believe in an afterlife.
Their churches are more akin to a session with a kindly community psychologist.
Again, their parishioners probably get something useful out of this.
Even if its just lonely old ladies having a cup of tea and a bickie with other community members....where is the harm in that. I see it as a win/win.

Yes, its common enough to hear of senior Anglican clerics admitting agnosticism.

I've said it here before, but the afflictions of Alzheimer's and dementia quickly put paid to the idea of our memories and consciousness surviving our death... They evidently don't necessarily survive our life.

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Yadda

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #605 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 9:21am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:20am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:48am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Sicilian Mafia Dons attending church comes to mind!

I read a survey of Anglican pastors and nearly 50 % admitted privately they did not believe in an afterlife.
Their churches are more akin to a session with a kindly community psychologist.
Again, their parishioners probably get something useful out of this.
Even if its just lonely old ladies having a cup of tea and a bickie with other community members....where is the harm in that. I see it as a win/win.

Yes, its common enough to hear of senior Anglican clerics admitting agnosticism.

I've said it here before, but the afflictions of Alzheimer's and dementia quickly put paid to

the idea of our memories and consciousness surviving our death...

They evidently don't necessarily survive our life.

But the words that you use, confirm [or concede], that we do not know that circumstance is true.

You may recall, there was a hollywood movie, AWAKENINGS, 1990 [based upon real events], that demonstrated how dementia(?) was temporarily reversed in a group of aged home residents - after they were given a 'new' drug.

Those real-life circumstances [that the AWAKENINGS movie portrayed], demonstrate that it is likely that our 'memories' and consciousness are NOT destroyed by the progressive physical dis-ease of our physical body,
....even when [it appears likely] that the deterioration of physical structures in the brain may be preventing OUR ready access to those [our] 'memories' and consciousness.

And, could the circumstances portrayed in the AWAKENINGS movie, suggest that the function of the human brain may not be merely that, of a 'storage device' ?

Maybe the human brain also has the function, of a 'transmitter' and 'receiver' of data ?

Although it is [currently] impossible to prove [or disprove] such a function [of the brain], it could be possible [that our brain does have such a function].

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Hamlet, William Shakespeare

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #606 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 9:02pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 7:45am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:19pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

The number of times we have to turn to the various Christian charities to "get things done"...emergency accommodation, cleaning up houses etc etc because the "paid" social workers finish at 5 pm.
Well, lets just say, a lot of the community support for the "down and out" would completely fall apart without the input of the church (particularly Christian ) sector.

Yes, I'd probably agree with that.

An interesting question would be : Are these charity workers actually theists (believers in god)? Or are they decent, sympathetic souls who can take or leave the god thing (i.e. who are atheists / agnostics) who are happy to be part of any organisation that allows them to actualise their innate goodness.

Not sure if Alain de Botton covered this in his book 'Religion for Atheists' (I suspect he did), but I am sure that Bishop Spong would most likely concur. He (a southern American episcopalian Bishop) has forsaken most of the Jesus myth for the message... You would call him agnostic (maybe even atheist or, perhaps non-theistic).

Most of them are active involved members of churches. That pretty much implies they are Christian.

Well, its reasonable to assume they are probably culturally Christian.

Whether they actually believe in god or are agnostics is another question and one that, for many I'd bet, is a personal issue which they may not care to discuss... Particularly when they are motivated by an innate sense of compassion that they may not necessarily attribute its genesis to being from a god.

What does anyone know about god?

What can contingent language express about an essentially non-contingent .... what? Thing? Being? Entity? Person? All contingent words.

This is why, in a different context, Heiddegger could rightly say that "the point is not to listen to a series of propositions, but rather to follow the movement of showing." This is so in any conversation but especially when the propositions themselves are parables, symbols, pointings to the experiences of the unfolding the noncontingent. The world is that showing, or more precisely, people experience the world as the showing of god.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #607 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 9:01am .
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #608 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 9:19am

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 9:02pm:

What does anyone know about god?

What can contingent language express about an essentially non-contingent .... what? Thing? Being? Entity? Person? All contingent words.

Ah! Memories of Robert Pirsig's protagonist in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance!!

Quote:

Phædrus says, "All this is just an analogy."

Silence. And then confusion appears on the Chairman's face. "What?" he says. The spell of his performance is broken.

"This entire description of the chariot and horses is just an analogy."

"What?" he says again, then loudly, "It is the truth! Socrates has sworn to the Gods that it is the truth!"

Phædrus replies, "Socrates himself says it is an analogy."

"If you will read the dialogue you will find that Socrates specifically states it is the Truth!"

"Yes, but prior to that —in, I believe, two paragraphs— he has stated that it is an analogy."

The text is on the table to consult but the Chairman has enough sense not to consult it. If he does and Phædrus is right,
his classroom face is completely demolished. He has told the class no one has read the book thoroughly.

Rhetoric, 1; Dialectic, 0.

Fantastic, Phædrus thinks, that he should have remembered that. It just demolishes the whole dialectical position. That may just be the
whole show right there. Of course it’s an analogy. Everything is an analogy. But the dialecticians don’t know that.
That’s why the Chairman missed that statement of Socrates. Phædrus has caught it and remembered it, because if Socrates hadn’t stated it he wouldn’t have been telling the "Truth."

Of course it’s all analogy, when it comes to god and the truth. Language is for the signpost, not the destination. Read the signs then make a leap of faith... if you must.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #609 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 10:53am

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 9:02pm:

This is why, in a different context, Heiddegger could rightly say that "the point is not to listen to a series of propositions, but rather to follow the movement of showing."

A concept Heidegger deployed when he became a Nazi, perhaps?

"he who thinks great thoughts, often makes great errors" - Martin Heidegger

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Yadda

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #610 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 10:58am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 9:19am:

Of course it’s all analogy, when it comes to god and the truth.

Language is for the signpost, not the destination.

Read the signs then make a leap of faith... if you must.

As we wander [lost!] here in this world, imo, our utilisation of language [and the concepts which the language we utilise, is able to 'enliven'] is what facilitates our journey [back 'home'?].

???

The words which we use, and the words which we hear [which we hear being used], open our imagination[?] to what is possible - in a world where so much is NOT possible, in a world in a reality which we experience, where so much constraint is placed upon our potential.

This fleshly casing is [intentionally] a 'constraint', a prison, imo.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:...

+++

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Psalms 27:8
When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

Psalms 23:3
....he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #611 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:00am

somewhere on OzPol.....

Quote:

My God, as i perceive him, has created an environment, as circumstance, where we reveal ourselves.

My God, as i perceive him, is just and merciful.

We place too much emphasis on what God has 'done' [i.e. what he 'allows'], but we miss the obvious.

This current world is what we [mankind] have created through our choices.

Q.
Does God allow this?

A.
Yes. [from my perspective]

Q.
Is God unjust to allow us to commit evil?

A.
Better to make our 'mistakes' here, than in the spirit world.

We are all spiritual beings [i believe], and we come to this physical existence specifically [i believe], to exercise the 'power' of choice [given to each of us, by God], ....in this physical existence.

And in this life, by our choices, we have an 'opportunity' to demonstrate, that we understand the consequences of our choices.

Choice is a mental power, a thought power,
....a spiritual power.

Here, in this 'reality', here on this little planet, our choices have no form, until we express them, physically!

We are 'going to school' here [i believe].

And [i believe that] we come here, to learn, and to come to understand the consequences of expressing our choices.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #612 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am

aquascoot wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:48am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

For you to assume that the act of going to church makes them a proven christians is a good way to confidently arrive at the wrong conclusion.

Sicilian Mafia Dons attending church comes to mind!

I read a survey of Anglican pastors and nearly 50 % admitted privately they did not believe in an afterlife.
Their churches are more akin to a session with a kindly community psychologist.
Again, their parishioners probably get something useful out of this.
Even if its just lonely old ladies having a cup of tea and a bickie with other community members....where is the harm in that. I see it as a win/win.

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #613 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:56am

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

I wouldn't go so far as to say modern Anglicanism is destined for distinction, but it is true that evangelism seems to lather enough emotional froth to attract the young mind to its manic energy.

It (cynically) redeploys Paul's superficial notion that belief in Jesus as Saviour is enough to grant one salvation and redemption from oneself. A dangerous (although potent) proposition - To be saved from oneself, with minimal effort, through a simplistic and vacuous single tenet.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #614 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:41pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

I wouldn't go so far as to say modern Anglicanism is destined for distinction, but it is true that evangelism seems to lather enough emotional froth to attract the young mind to its manic energy.

It (cynically) redeploys Paul's superficial notion that belief in Jesus as Saviour is enough to grant one salvation and redemption from oneself. A dangerous (although potent) proposition - To be saved from oneself, with minimal effort, through a simplistic and vacuous single tenet.

it is neither cynical nor superficial. It is the fundamental Grace of God that belief in Jesus as Saviour IS enough for salvation. What so confounds people is that so great a gift is given freely.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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