Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #615 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:47pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

I wouldn't go so far as to say modern Anglicanism is destined for distinction, but it is true that evangelism seems to lather enough emotional froth to attract the young mind to its manic energy.

It (cynically) redeploys Paul's superficial notion that belief in Jesus as Saviour is enough to grant one salvation and redemption from oneself. A dangerous (although potent) proposition - To be saved from oneself, with minimal effort, through a simplistic and vacuous single tenet.

it is neither cynical nor superficial. It is the fundamental Grace of God that belief in Jesus as Saviour IS enough for salvation. What so confounds people is that so great a gift is given freely.

As superficial a notion as believing that paying off the debts of a gambler will redeem the gambler from his gambling self.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #616 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:48pm .
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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #617 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 3:53pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:47pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

I wouldn't go so far as to say modern Anglicanism is destined for distinction, but it is true that evangelism seems to lather enough emotional froth to attract the young mind to its manic energy.

It (cynically) redeploys Paul's superficial notion that belief in Jesus as Saviour is enough to grant one salvation and redemption from oneself. A dangerous (although potent) proposition - To be saved from oneself, with minimal effort, through a simplistic and vacuous single tenet.

it is neither cynical nor superficial. It is the fundamental Grace of God that belief in Jesus as Saviour IS enough for salvation. What so confounds people is that so great a gift is given freely.

As superficial a notion as believing that paying off the debts of a gambler will redeem the gambler from his gambling self.

That's the thing about God. He is a little more capable of life changing than you. History is replete with examples of the dramatic changes that conversion brings. 'Amazing Grace' was written by one such convert - a former slave trader.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #618 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 5:25pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 3:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:47pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

I wouldn't go so far as to say modern Anglicanism is destined for distinction, but it is true that evangelism seems to lather enough emotional froth to attract the young mind to its manic energy.

It (cynically) redeploys Paul's superficial notion that belief in Jesus as Saviour is enough to grant one salvation and redemption from oneself. A dangerous (although potent) proposition - To be saved from oneself, with minimal effort, through a simplistic and vacuous single tenet.

it is neither cynical nor superficial. It is the fundamental Grace of God that belief in Jesus as Saviour IS enough for salvation. What so confounds people is that so great a gift is given freely.

As superficial a notion as believing that paying off the debts of a gambler will redeem the gambler from his gambling self.

That's the thing about God. He is a little more capable of life changing than you.

History is replete with examples of the dramatic changes that conversion brings. 'Amazing Grace' was written by one such convert - a former slave trader.

These stories are found in every religious tradition...

They are also outrageously common in the zany world of new age pop psychology.

All similar, in their intent, to lottery advertisements, designed to reinforce the illusion that you too can be instantly rich (or effortlessly enlightened, cured or saved).

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #619 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 6:39pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 3:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:47pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

The Anglican Church is one generation away from extinction and largely because of things like this. Who would bother going to a church that doesn't believe in God or the afterlife? in contrast, the Pentecostal and other evangelical denominations are booming.

I wouldn't go so far as to say modern Anglicanism is destined for distinction, but it is true that evangelism seems to lather enough emotional froth to attract the young mind to its manic energy.

It (cynically) redeploys Paul's superficial notion that belief in Jesus as Saviour is enough to grant one salvation and redemption from oneself. A dangerous (although potent) proposition - To be saved from oneself, with minimal effort, through a simplistic and vacuous single tenet.

it is neither cynical nor superficial. It is the fundamental Grace of God that belief in Jesus as Saviour IS enough for salvation. What so confounds people is that so great a gift is given freely.

As superficial a notion as believing that paying off the debts of a gambler will redeem the gambler from his gambling self.

That's the thing about God. He is a little more capable of life changing than you.

History is replete with examples of the dramatic changes that conversion brings. 'Amazing Grace' was written by one such convert - a former slave trader.

These stories are found in every religious tradition...

They are also outrageously common in the zany world of new age pop psychology.

All similar, in their intent, to lottery advertisements, designed to reinforce the illusion that you too can be instantly rich (or effortlessly enlightened, cured or saved).

and the effects are sometimes as long lasting as MONTHS instead of the usual weeks. Long-last change and especially dramatic change is something altogether different.

This is the area in which I have significant experience. Ive seen the druggies criminals (and yes even one murderer) show dramatic an long-lasting change. Our pastor is a former drug dealer himself.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #620 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 7:43pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 6:39pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

These stories are found in every religious tradition...

They are also outrageously common in the zany world of new age pop psychology.

All similar, in their intent, to lottery advertisements, designed to reinforce the illusion that you too can be instantly rich (or effortlessly enlightened, cured or saved).

and the effects are sometimes as long lasting as MONTHS instead of the usual weeks. Long-last change and especially dramatic change is something altogether different.

This is the area in which I have significant experience. Ive seen the druggies criminals (and yes even one murderer) show dramatic an long-lasting change. Our pastor is a former drug dealer himself.

As with all religious traditions, there are spectacular 'redemption' stories and many thousands of unspectacular stories of people who pass through established religions, modern versions of them and new age ones, and leave as quickly as they appeared. You would know this, I'm sure, if you have significant experience.

While the adherents will always claim that these conversions and their subsequent life changing effects are down to the tenets of their belief, I'd bet that there are other, far more prosaic, reasons for these converts' need to attach themselves, like a limpet, to their refuge.

Guilt, for example, is a potent motivator for this kind of reaction. Your pastor was a former drug dealer... Had a 'dark night of the soul' over administering to junkies and knew there had to be another way? Would it have been any different if, instead of neo-Christianity, he found Islam or Buddhism, or (god forbid!) spiritual healing through crystals?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #621 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 8:28pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 5:25pm: These stories are found in every religious tradition... Why is that, do you think?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #622 - Apr 19^th, 2014 at 8:52pm

Soren wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

These stories are found in every religious tradition...

Why is that, do you think?

For the usual reasons... Solace, escape from existential angst, or guilt.

The heavy advertising of these prominent conversions is similar in intent to that of a lotto advert.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #623 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 8:44am

While I accept that it may happen with other religious traditions, it seems common that (particularly) the members of evangelical Christian denominations tend to waste little time in trumpeting the conversion of criminals to their church?

There was a time when the Catholic Church was seldom backward in coming forward with evidence of miracles (from weeping statues, to visions of the Virgin Mary by illiterate peasant girls in small villages, to apparently 'inexplicable' cures from disease). With the advances in neuroscience, psychiatry and medicine, the modern Catholic church is very much more skeptical about leaping on the miracle bandwagon, and seems to (conveniently) do so only when uber-popular candidates for canonisation are on the agenda (Mother Theresa of India comes to mind), which requires two papal accepted miracles.

And, it seems, that the Vatican will continue to suspend its prudent modern incredulity regarding miracles for its greats, like the late John Paul II.

My take on this is that neo-Christian evangelical sects appear to be at the stage of growth that the Catholic Church was at in the 16th century (or maybe as late as the 19th)...

Although its nice to imagine that one's shared faith with the convert is necessarily the sole reason for any positive transformations, its trumpeting smacks (in Christian-speak) of the mortal sin of pride (or, more accurately translated as, the sin of arrogance), and never mind the more obvious mundane psychological reasons for the convert's change of heart.

The flaw in all of this advertising is that it betrays the advertisers' anxiety about the truth of their religious claims... A bit like a self-declared anthropologist's claim that the discovery of a malformed ancient human skull is proof positive that aliens once visited (and died) on earth.

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Soren

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #624 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 4:17pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

These stories are found in every religious tradition...

Why is that, do you think?

For the usual reasons... Solace, escape from existential angst, or guilt.

The heavy advertising of these prominent conversions is similar in intent to that of a lotto advert.

Ah, psychology. It's all very simple, really, once you've got the psychology, the rest falls into place. Would you like to know how to play the flute? It's easy - you blow in one end and move your finders up and down the holes.

Mind the anachronistic gap, though. Psychological thinking is a recent phenomenon and is very crude, schematic, dare I say, reductionist way of looking at things. It trades in the wrong myths (it isn't even scientific, which would be at least a mathematical reductionism).
Psychology is bad myth-making.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #625 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 5:51pm

Soren wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 4:17pm:

Would you like to know how to play the flute? It's easy - you blow in one end and move your finders up and down the holes.

Yes, that would be my point. To suggest a vacuous and superficial tenet (acceptance of Jesus as saviour), will suffice to offer, by that fact alone, redemption from oneself, without regard to the complexities of one's disorders is similar, in its intent, to a lotto advert (or, if you like, to promise talent as a flautist by simply blowing in one end and moving your finders up and down the holes).

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #626 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 6:02pm

I had a daughter miraculously healed from spina bifida as an infant. The nerves were exposed and damaged. after prayer the hole grew over and covered up and has subsequently had ZERO spinal defects. this all happened over a period of 3 days.

even the doctors called it a miracle as it simply does not and cannot occur.

It is hard to take your scepticism seriously when you have been part of that.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74446 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #627 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 6:06pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 6:02pm: even the doctors called it a miracle as it simply does not and cannot occur the fact that it did happen proves that it can happen .....
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Soren

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #628 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 6:07pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 5:51pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 4:17pm:

Would you like to know how to play the flute? It's easy - you blow in one end and move your finders up and down the holes.

Yes, that would be my point. To suggest a vacuous and superficial tenet (acceptance of Jesus as saviour), will suffice to offer, by that fact alone, redemption from oneself, without regard to the complexities of one's disorders is similar, in its intent, to a lotto advert (or, if you like, to promise talent as a flautist by simply blowing in one end and moving your finders up and down the holes).

I don't think a 2000 year old civilisation rests on such a premise. Do you really think it does?

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2014 at 10:10pm by Soren »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #629 - Apr 20^th, 2014 at 6:13pm

Soren wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 6:07pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 5:51pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 4:17pm:

Would you like to know how to play the flute? It's easy - you blow in one end and move your finders up and down the holes.

Yes, that would be my point. To suggest a vacuous and superficial tenet (acceptance of Jesus as saviour), will suffice to offer, by that fact alone, redemption from oneself, without regard to the complexities of one's disorders is similar, in its intent, to a lotto advert (or, if you like, to promise talent as a flautist by simply blowing in one end and moving your finders up and down the holes).

I don't think a 2000 year old civilisation rest on such a premise. Do you really think it does?

Paul thought the world was to end in his lifetime, he had no time to lose.

The regurgitation of his tenet in modern day evangelistic neo-Christianity is a vacuous anachronism.

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