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How gullible are some people? (Read 49280 times)
longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #645 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:05pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 10:43am:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 10:20am:
and if that is to be your position then discussion or debate of any kind is pointless, isn't it?  I have no reasons to lie and I have been telling this story on forums for over 10 years and consistently so. Naturally I have no interestino of any kind of publish private medical records and one would hope that the reson why would be rather obvious.  But it would be pointless anyhow.  you would still say it either didn't happen or there was some other reason.  You decline to declare a standard of proof because you realise miracles (and there are quire a number) would frequently exceed it.  So your only option is to either increase the standard of proof to the literally unattainable or decline to engage the debate.

Choosing the latter does not make you much of a debater. I say 'coward' and you provide the proof.

Debate requires openness to scrutiny. You cannot provide any material for scrutiny and I accept that you will not and should not publish private material for the obvious reasons.

However, that puts your story in the category of a matter of faith. You intend to offer the reader nothing else but your story.

But to react with contempt when you are doubted is dishonest and arrogant.

What is it to insist that I and others accept that it must be true because you have been saying it for 10 years?

How do you rationalise that your readers must necessarily assume you have no reason to lie? I don't know you. I don't know whether or not you have a daughter. I can't know whether or not she even had spina bifida...

This form of testifying is common in many Christian sects... Where the testifier is not expected to provide proof... The congregation is feeding off the same hyperbolic emotions that you are... A spurious need to prove that Jesus saved your daughter via a miracle...

To call me a coward is a modern day version of the 16th century condemnation of apostates for failing to take as a matter of faith, god's existence or presence in the world... It is a ridiculous anachronism, similar to a modern Catholic condemning Galileo .

This is neo-Christianity's greatest flaw... Its insistence that its adherents' return to the 16th century in their crude and belligerent religious chauvinism.


It is a nice argument and all but all it does is reduce the debate to nothing. Any debate on miracles starts (and ends) with this argument which is ultimately 'prove it'.  I can but clearly that is not possible here and even if I did, you would reject it anyhow.

Miracles are a difficult thing to debate because they are in essence 'impossibilities' which by their very occurrence are therefore not impossible and not a miracle.

But when you have a daughter destined to a life in a wheelchair from an incurable illness and then prayer causes a 100% recovery, you might however find your arguments to be found wanting.

You say this is a debate on faith when it is in fact nothing of the kind.   It is all quite factual, but behind the facts is something or rather Someone you cannot, will not and refuse to acknowledge and so the debate is stymied in all this faux argument.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #646 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:06pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 11:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 10:20am:
and if that is to be your position then discussion or debate of any kind is pointless, isn't it?  I have no reasons to lie and I have been telling this story on forums for over 10 years and consistently so



1. despite no reason to lie, you have been caught lying on multiple occassions
2. first time I've seen this story and I've been on here for 2 yrs.


discussing anything with you is pointless .... you don't pull your head out of your arse long enough to listen to any opposing views. To call North a coward because he refuses to comment on your daughters case without the facts shows just how far up your rectum your head actually is ... I bet you can see your tonsils from there.



then you've not been listening. ASk any other poster and they will inform you otherwise.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #647 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:07pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:06pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 11:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 10:20am:
and if that is to be your position then discussion or debate of any kind is pointless, isn't it?  I have no reasons to lie and I have been telling this story on forums for over 10 years and consistently so



1. despite no reason to lie, you have been caught lying on multiple occassions
2. first time I've seen this story and I've been on here for 2 yrs.


discussing anything with you is pointless .... you don't pull your head out of your arse long enough to listen to any opposing views. To call North a coward because he refuses to comment on your daughters case without the facts shows just how far up your rectum your head actually is ... I bet you can see your tonsils from there.



then you've not been listening. ASk any other poster and they will inform you otherwise.



OK Longy, I'll do that ......

Hey North, have you heard this story before?
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longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #648 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:20pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:07pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:06pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 11:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 10:20am:
and if that is to be your position then discussion or debate of any kind is pointless, isn't it?  I have no reasons to lie and I have been telling this story on forums for over 10 years and consistently so



1. despite no reason to lie, you have been caught lying on multiple occassions
2. first time I've seen this story and I've been on here for 2 yrs.


discussing anything with you is pointless .... you don't pull your head out of your arse long enough to listen to any opposing views. To call North a coward because he refuses to comment on your daughters case without the facts shows just how far up your rectum your head actually is ... I bet you can see your tonsils from there.



then you've not been listening. ASk any other poster and they will inform you otherwise.



OK Longy, I'll do that ......

Hey North, have you heard this story before? 


ask lastnail, bobby, cods, Andrei etc.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #649 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:36pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:05pm:
It is a nice argument and all but all it does is reduce the debate to nothing. Any debate on miracles starts (and ends) with this argument which is ultimately 'prove it'.  I can but clearly that is not possible here and even if I did, you would reject it anyhow.

Miracles are a difficult thing to debate because they are in essence 'impossibilities' which by their very occurrence are therefore not impossible and not a miracle.

But when you have a daughter destined to a life in a wheelchair from an incurable illness and then prayer causes a 100% recovery, you might however find your arguments to be found wanting.

You say this is a debate on faith when it is in fact nothing of the kind.   It is all quite factual, but behind the facts is something or rather Someone you cannot, will not and refuse to acknowledge and so the debate is stymied in all this faux argument.

You've spent too many years evangelising to people like yourself who need no evidence to believe your extraordinary claims because they are as caught up in the emotional froth as you are...

This is how televangelists make so much money. The foolish, the lonely, the vulnerable will part with their cash and even pretend to believe the outlandish claims of the 'cured' or their advocates if it furthers their manic state... If you'll easy part with cash, why not a sense of incredulity?

Now, you accept that miracles are not miracles?

It was originally out of respect for what was clearly a matter of faith to you not to debate something that cannot be debated due to the unavailability of evidence... But really, people like you are dangerous fools, whose insistence that his story is true, without the need to prove anything, may lead some distressed, hapless parent to refuse medical assistance for their child because some blind religious zealot claimed the cure lay in prayer.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #650 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:43pm
 
John Smith wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:07pm:
OK Longy, I'll do that ......

Hey North, have you heard this story before? 

No, but anyone can spruik stories of flying pigs in Greenland for 10 years... An argumentum ad infinitum (or ad nauseam) will not make it necessarily believable.
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Conviction is the art of being certain
 
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longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #651 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:36pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:05pm:
It is a nice argument and all but all it does is reduce the debate to nothing. Any debate on miracles starts (and ends) with this argument which is ultimately 'prove it'.  I can but clearly that is not possible here and even if I did, you would reject it anyhow.

Miracles are a difficult thing to debate because they are in essence 'impossibilities' which by their very occurrence are therefore not impossible and not a miracle.

But when you have a daughter destined to a life in a wheelchair from an incurable illness and then prayer causes a 100% recovery, you might however find your arguments to be found wanting.

You say this is a debate on faith when it is in fact nothing of the kind.   It is all quite factual, but behind the facts is something or rather Someone you cannot, will not and refuse to acknowledge and so the debate is stymied in all this faux argument.

You've spent too many years evangelising to people like yourself who need no evidence to believe your extraordinary claims because they are as caught up in the emotional froth as you are...

This is how televangelists make so much money. The foolish, the lonely, the vulnerable will part with their cash and even pretend to believe the outlandish claims of the 'cured' or their advocates if it furthers their manic state... If you'll easy part with cash, why not a sense of incredulity?

Now, you accept that miracles are not miracles?

It was originally out of respect for what was clearly a matter of faith to you not to debate something that cannot be debated due to the unavailability of evidence... But really, people like you are dangerous fools, whose insistence that his story is true, without the need to prove anything, may lead some distressed, hapless parent to refuse medical assistance for their child because some blind religious zealot claimed the cure lay in prayer.



what nonsense and full of assumptions.  Why do you think I would lie about this matter? Despite the protestations of some on here that seem to confuse 'lie' with 'error' or 'opinion', I do not deliberately lie. I tell the truth as best as I can.  In this matter I am the person in possession of the facts. I was present at the birth, I was informed by the doctors and nurses of what she had and the life outcome etc. The sac was clearly visible and the initial xray confirmed the hole in the spine. at age 3 days after prayer she was xrayed again and the hold was gone and the nerve damage that was visible at birth was subsequently proven to be healed as she grew older with zero problems.  The doctors themselves were non-plussed and several expressed that it was nothing short of a miracle as they had seen NO ONE have the same thing happen.

There have certainly been some fakes and charlatans around, but this not one of them.  ANd I can even detail another case that is similarly impossible which has before and after xrays, but would that matter to you? I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #652 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:51pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:43pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:07pm:
OK Longy, I'll do that ......

Hey North, have you heard this story before? 

No, but anyone can spruik stories of flying pigs in Greenland for 10 years... An argumentum ad infinitum (or ad nauseam) will not make it necessarily believable.


ah, the cynic in full flight who believes nothing and as a result, sees nothing as well.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #653 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:04pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm:
I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.
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longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #654 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:12pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:04pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm:
I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.


and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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John Smith
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #655 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:15pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:12pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:04pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm:
I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.


and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.


how can you expect anyone to answer that without their seeing the evidence at hand? What to you may appear clear evidence, to somone else may appear unclear.  The person cannot know until they see it.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #656 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:16pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:12pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:04pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm:
I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.


and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the  cart before the horse.
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longweekend58
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #657 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:20pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:16pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:12pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:04pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm:
I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.


and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.


actually it is PRECISELY my point.  Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle.  That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #658 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:28pm
 
Quote:
Perhaps you can... But then, you'd agree, as I know you do, that the Christian myth is irrelevant, just as you'd say that the truth of the 'Juliet balcony' is irrelevant.

In other words (paraphrasing you), if someone insisted that you accept the historicity (or truth) of the balcony as a prerequisite for its focusing of your mind as you stood below it, would you agree?



Not irrelevant at all. What the parables and mysteries and the balcony and icons and art and poetry and that do is keep mind and the heart and the soul engaged, directed. Aids to contemplation, meditation (ie prayer) are not irrelevant.  Just as their subjects are not matters for materialistic positivism.

As for the presence of Christ in the world ('resurrection') - his spirit is more obviously present in the world today, and has been since his crucifixion, than the spirit of any of his contemporaries, even the most famous and powerful. There is no spirit of Caesar or Augustus in the world today. There is nobody in the whole of world history whose spirit has endured like Christ's. Take that as his 'resurrection'.

Anyway, looking always, looking everywhere for positivist proofs of the backstage props and scenery is to miss the 'movement of the showing', the drama itself.




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NorthOfNorth
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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #659 - Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:28pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:20pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:16pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:12pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 1:04pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:50pm:
I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed.  So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.


and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.


actually it is PRECISELY my point.  Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle.  That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

You have already said miracles aren't miracles (i.e. miracles don't happen)... So if I was to see the documents and all evidence pointed to an inexplicable healing... Then that's what it would be for both of us, wouldn't it? Inexplicable.

The documents. Provide the documents to us all and we can begin an honest debate.

After that, who knows? ... You'll say tomato and I'll say... umm... tomato.

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