Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #660 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:31pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 12:50pm:

I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed. So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.

and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.

actually it is PRECISELY my point. Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle. That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

You have already said miracles aren't miracles (i.e. miracles don't happen)... So if I was to see the documents and all evidence pointed to an inexplicable healing... Then that's what it would be for both of us, wouldn't it? Inexplicable.

The documents. Provide the documents to us all and we can begin an honest debate.

After that, who knows? ... You'll say tomato and I'll say... umm... tomato.

nice try but alas, still a deflection. I asked for a standard of proof and you obsfucated. Would you for instance accept an xray before and after that showed for example a faulty jaw totally remodelled? What would you say to that for instance?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #661 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 12:50pm:

I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed. So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.

and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.

actually it is PRECISELY my point. Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle. That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

Hasn't Dick Smith had on offer for well over a decade now a bounty of $1million to anyone who can prove to him a miracle ?.....

go for it longy, if you are so sure your daughters case was a miracle, claim the prize .... what are you afraid off?

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #662 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:37pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 12:50pm:

I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed. So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.

and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.

actually it is PRECISELY my point. Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle. That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

Hasn't Dick Smith had on offer for well over a decade now a bounty of $1million to anyone who can prove to him a miracle ?.....

go for it longy, if you are so sure your daughters case was a miracle, claim the prize .... what are you afraid off?

not heard that. Can you point me to where he says this?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #663 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:41pm

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:28pm:

Not irrelevant at all. What the parables and mysteries and the balcony and icons and art and poetry and that do is keep mind and the heart and the soul engaged, directed. Aids to contemplation, meditation (ie prayer) are not irrelevant. Just as their subjects are not matters for materialistic positivism.

As for the presence of Christ in the world ('resurrection') - his spirit is more obviously present in the world today, and has been since his crucifixion, than the spirit of any of his contemporaries, even the most famous and powerful. There is no spirit of Caesar or Augustus in the world today. There is nobody in the whole of world history whose spirit has endured like Christ's. Take that as his 'resurrection'.

Anyway, looking always, looking everywhere for positivist proofs of the backstage props and scenery is to miss the 'movement of the showing', the drama itself.

Well, there's the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Then there's his near contemporary Paul the apostle (who, after all, created Christianity), Cicero et al...

And, of course, there's Shakespeare who gave us Juliet's balcony.

All of these people are 'alive' in the sense you intend...

As for positive proofs, I think I've posted enough here to demonstrate that I think the looking for proofs of historicity is irrelevant and mostly a wild goose chase... The tradition of their existence is what's important and irrefutable.

I am with Spong with regards to Jesus' historicity. I think the expectation to take the myths literally detract from the message.

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #664 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:46pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:37pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 12:50pm:

I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed. So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.

and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.

actually it is PRECISELY my point. Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle. That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

Hasn't Dick Smith had on offer for well over a decade now a bounty of $1million to anyone who can prove to him a miracle ?.....

go for it longy, if you are so sure your daughters case was a miracle, claim the prize .... what are you afraid off?

not heard that. Can you point me to where he says this?

email or facebook him

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #665 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:28pm:

Not irrelevant at all. What the parables and mysteries and the balcony and icons and art and poetry and that do is keep mind and the heart and the soul engaged, directed. Aids to contemplation, meditation (ie prayer) are not irrelevant. Just as their subjects are not matters for materialistic positivism.

As for the presence of Christ in the world ('resurrection') - his spirit is more obviously present in the world today, and has been since his crucifixion, than the spirit of any of his contemporaries, even the most famous and powerful. There is no spirit of Caesar or Augustus in the world today. There is nobody in the whole of world history whose spirit has endured like Christ's. Take that as his 'resurrection'.

Anyway, looking always, looking everywhere for positivist proofs of the backstage props and scenery is to miss the 'movement of the showing', the drama itself.

Well, there's the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Then there's his near contemporary Paul the apostle (who, after all, created Christianity), Cicero et al...

And, of course, there's Shakespeare who gave us Juliet's balcony.

All of these people are 'alive' in the sense you intend...

As for positive proofs, I think I've posted enough here to demonstrate that I think the looking for proofs of historicity is irrelevant and mostly a wild goose chase... The tradition of their existence is what's important and irrefutable.

I am with Spong with regards to Jesus' historicity. I think the expectation to take the myths literally detract from the message.

so I n your rewriting of history paul created Christianity? That is a little awkward since he spent his youth tracking down imprisoning and executing Christians.

at least tray and get some of your history right.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #666 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:51pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:31pm:

[quote author=helian link=1396315783/659#659 date=1398050899] I asked for a standard of proof and you obsfucated. Would you for instance accept an xray before and after that showed for example a faulty jaw totally remodelled? What would you say to that for instance?

You're the deflector.

Send us her medical records and her doctor's statement claiming a miracle.

It won't be hard after that to obtain expert medical opinion on whether her doctor was correct (that the event was inexplicable - a miracle) or otherwise.

The documents... Hand over the documents.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #667 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:51pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:46pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:37pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 12:50pm:

I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed. So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.

and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.

actually it is PRECISELY my point. Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle. That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

Hasn't Dick Smith had on offer for well over a decade now a bounty of $1million to anyone who can prove to him a miracle ?.....

go for it longy, if you are so sure your daughters case was a miracle, claim the prize .... what are you afraid off?

not heard that. Can you point me to where he says this?

email or facebook him

you can do better than that.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #668 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:51pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:46pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:37pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 12:50pm:

I am serious when I ask what level of proof you would accept because in this post you claim that no proof is ever provided or needed. So what is it? do you have an answer?

Supply her medical records and a document from her doctor stating the incident is "nothing short of a miracle" (or words to that effect).

Won't do that?

Right, well, there's the evidence you'd need to supply. If not... keep it to yourself, or at least stop demanding that people unknown to you must believe you.

and if I did that, would you then believe it is a miracle?

I think we all know the answer which is kinda my point.

Well, now you're drawing a conclusion as to my opinion prior to the debate... Kinda like putting the horse before the cart.

actually it is PRECISELY my point. Ive dont this debate many many times before and the things that has always struck me is that when pushed, most people declare an impossible standard of proof to avoid ever having to confront the implications of a miracle. That's why I asked for your standard of proof because I am pretty sure (and you've given me no reason to doubt it) that you would also only accept a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.

So I ask seriously, what evidence would you require for PROOF that a miracle had occurred.

Hasn't Dick Smith had on offer for well over a decade now a bounty of $1million to anyone who can prove to him a miracle ?.....

go for it longy, if you are so sure your daughters case was a miracle, claim the prize .... what are you afraid off?

not heard that. Can you point me to where he says this?

email or facebook him

you can do better than that.

why would I want to? you claim the miracle, you prove it .... its not for me to prove you wrong, I already know you are wrong.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #669 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:51pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:31pm:

[quote author=helian link=1396315783/659#659 date=1398050899] I asked for a standard of proof and you obsfucated. Would you for instance accept an xray before and after that showed for example a faulty jaw totally remodelled? What would you say to that for instance?

You're the deflector.

Send us her medical records and her doctor's statement claiming a miracle.

It won't be hard after that to obtain expert medical opinion on whether her doctor was correct (that the event was inexplicable - a miracle) or otherwise.

The documents... Hand over the documents.

Still a deflection. You have yet to say what standard of proof you would employ. Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Feel free to at least attempt to define a level of proof. After all you believe in climate change with virtually no proof.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #670 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:02pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:47pm: so I n your rewriting of history paul created Christianity? That is a little awkward since he spent his youth tracking down imprisoning and executing Christians. at least tray and get some of your history right. I think you'd better try and get your history right.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #671 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #672 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:20pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:47pm:

so I n your rewriting of history paul created Christianity? That is a little awkward since he spent his youth tracking down imprisoning and executing Christians.

at least tray and get some of your history right.

I think you'd better try and get your history right.

So you think Paul (when still called Saul) wasn't persecuting an already established Christian Church?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #673 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #674 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:00pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:47pm:

so I n your rewriting of history paul created Christianity? That is a little awkward since he spent his youth tracking down imprisoning and executing Christians.

at least tray and get some of your history right.

I think you'd better try and get your history right.

So you think Paul (when still called Saul) wasn't persecuting an already established Christian Church?

Without a doubt he wasn't persecuting an established church.

He wasn't persecuting Christians, either. At least they didn't call themselves Christians... And their practices would have been almost completely Jewish as opposed to the new religion Paul would eventually create.

What we know as Christianity today is Pauline Christianity.

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