Australian Politics Forum - How gullible are some people?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #675 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:07pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

What is intriguing is that this medical first did not make it into medical journals (names changed of course).

If this recovery was as inexplicable and astonishing as you claim, it's a wonder her doctors weren't clamouring for the right to publish the case.

Did that happen? Did her doctors badger you for your permission?

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #676 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:08pm .
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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #677 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:00pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:47pm:

so I n your rewriting of history paul created Christianity? That is a little awkward since he spent his youth tracking down imprisoning and executing Christians.

at least tray and get some of your history right.

I think you'd better try and get your history right.

So you think Paul (when still called Saul) wasn't persecuting an already established Christian Church?

Without a doubt he wasn't persecuting an established church.

He wasn't persecuting Christians, either. At least they didn't call themselves Christians... And their practices would have been almost completely Jewish as opposed to the new religion Paul would eventually create.

What we know as Christianity today is Pauline Christianity.

completely wrong in almost every respect. The Christian church was established immediately post-resurrection by the Apostles and was called Christians or Christ-ones. Paul came some years later. His influence was of course very significant but the church was already in existence and not operating on Jewish lines at all although the influence was clearly significant.

get your history right.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #678 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:26pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:10pm:

[quote author=helian link=1396315783/674#674 date=1398067259]

completely wrong in almost every respect. The Christian church was established immediately post-resurrection by the Apostles and was called Christians or Christ-ones. Paul came some years later. His influence was of course very significant but the church was already in existence and not operating on Jewish lines at all although the influence was clearly significant.

get your history right.

These people were first called Christians well after Paul's conversion (Acts 11:26). Before that they didn't have a name per se. And they were Messianic Jews. Not Christians as we know today. There was also no established orthodox teachings, although they were all distinctly Jewish.

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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #679 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:31pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

what a stupid answer ... you asked for a standard of evidence, he gave you one. Now can you prove a miracle or not?

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #680 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:10pm:

[quote author=helian link=1396315783/674#674 date=1398067259]

completely wrong in almost every respect. The Christian church was established immediately post-resurrection by the Apostles and was called Christians or Christ-ones. Paul came some years later. His influence was of course very significant but the church was already in existence and not operating on Jewish lines at all although the influence was clearly significant.

get your history right.

These people were first called Christians well after Paul's conversion (Acts 11:26). Before that they didn't have a name per se. And they were Messianic Jews. Not Christians as we know today. There was also no established orthodox teachings, although they were all distinctly Jewish.

The church was established in ACts 2. paul came later (admittedly not much) but paul was persecuting Christians before his conversion. How did he persecute a church he established.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #681 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:36pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:31pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

what a stupid answer ... you asked for a standard of evidence, he gave you one. Now can you prove a miracle or not?

so many things escape you and the subtlety of this is just another one. he hasn't established a level of proof for a miracle at all - just an inexplicable event. You miss the point which is the level of proof for a MIRACLE ie a divine intervention.

keep trying.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How gullible are some people? Reply #682 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:42pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:32pm: How did he persecute a church he established. He didn't. He was persecuting Messianic Jews (followers of Jesus) because he considered them Jewish heretics.
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John Smith

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #683 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:43pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:31pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

what a stupid answer ... you asked for a standard of evidence, he gave you one. Now can you prove a miracle or not?

so many things escape you and the subtlety of this is just another one. he hasn't established a level of proof for a miracle at all - just an inexplicable event. You miss the point which is the level of proof for a MIRACLE ie a divine intervention.

keep trying.

an inexplicable event???? no longy, thats not how it works, you are the one claiming it is a miracle .... its up to you to prove it.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #684 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:45pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:07pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

What is intriguing is that this medical first did not make it into medical journals (names changed of course).

If this recovery was as inexplicable and astonishing as you claim, it's a wonder her doctors weren't clamouring for the right to publish the case.

Did that happen? Did her doctors badger you for your permission?

So... What happened? Was your permission sought?

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Soren

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #685 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:17pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:28pm:

Not irrelevant at all. What the parables and mysteries and the balcony and icons and art and poetry and that do is keep mind and the heart and the soul engaged, directed. Aids to contemplation, meditation (ie prayer) are not irrelevant. Just as their subjects are not matters for materialistic positivism.

As for the presence of Christ in the world ('resurrection') - his spirit is more obviously present in the world today, and has been since his crucifixion, than the spirit of any of his contemporaries, even the most famous and powerful. There is no spirit of Caesar or Augustus in the world today. There is nobody in the whole of world history whose spirit has endured like Christ's. Take that as his 'resurrection'.

Anyway, looking always, looking everywhere for positivist proofs of the backstage props and scenery is to miss the 'movement of the showing', the drama itself.

Well, there's the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Then there's his near contemporary Paul the apostle (who, after all, created Christianity), Cicero et al...

And, of course, there's Shakespeare who gave us Juliet's balcony.

All of these people are 'alive' in the sense you intend...

As for positive proofs, I think I've posted enough here to demonstrate that I think the looking for proofs of historicity is irrelevant and mostly a wild goose chase... The tradition of their existence is what's important and irrefutable.

I am with Spong with regards to Jesus' historicity. I think the expectation to take the myths literally detract from the message.

"the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Their spirit is not in the world. And Jesus wouldn't be in the world today if his story was only a myth.
Arachne, Achilles, Odysseus are only myths and so they are not present in the world like Christ is.

Christ is in the world because human beings are experiencing him as being in the world - in a way they are nor experiencing Achilles or Odysseus to be in the world. Or Confucius or Lao-Tzu or Plato.

I don't know what it's like to experience the Buddha or Shiva. I suspect it's nothing like Christ.
Sacrifice is ungainsayable.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #686 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:57pm

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:17pm:

"the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Their spirit is not in the world. And Jesus wouldn't be in the world today if his story was only a myth.
Arachne, Achilles, Odysseus are only myths and so they are not present in the world like Christ is.

Christ is in the world because human beings are experiencing him as being in the world - in a way they are nor experiencing Achilles or Odysseus to be in the world. Or Confucius or Lao-Tzu or Plato.

I don't know what it's like to experience the Buddha or Shiva. I suspect it's nothing like Christ.
Sacrifice is ungainsayable.

Given that, upon the lives and work of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle traditionally stands the western world as it came to be, its hard to say they are not alive in the sense that their shadow is not always upon us.

Given you claim you are not a Christian, your experience of Christ in the world should be no better informed than of Buddha or Shiva.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #687 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 8:05am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:45pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:07pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 5:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 2:21pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Your refusal to answer confirms my suspicions is that no matter what evidence is presented, you will demand a higher standard of proof until such point as we reach the level of impossibility.

Not at all. If an independent medical expert agrees with her doctor that the recovery was inexplicable and unique, after examination of her medical records, that would be enough for me to accept that her spontaneous recovery was inexplicable and unique.... You'd call it a miracle (or would you?).

how remarkably secular of you.

What is intriguing is that this medical first did not make it into medical journals (names changed of course).

If this recovery was as inexplicable and astonishing as you claim, it's a wonder her doctors weren't clamouring for the right to publish the case.

Did that happen? Did her doctors badger you for your permission?

So... What happened? Was your permission sought?

Is this 'daughter' story of yours one you trot out to start a wild goose chase on the definition of 'miracle'?

Plato has Socrates play the same game with definitions of virtue like, say, what is justice? or what is courage? Of course Socrates' foils are always stumped in the end but Plato never has Socrates able to conclusively answer the same questions himself.

But, really, we do believe we recognise these virtues when we witness a certain series of facts, that leads us to a conclusion about virtue, even if others would disagree on the conclusion drawn.

A miracle is a matter of faith, as I said some pages back.

Your daughter's recovery was a miracle for you because fact (a) you'd prayed for her recovery and fact (b) (according to you) the inexplicable and unique event of her recovery happened spontaneously soon after. For you (a) caused (b). You can't prove it, but, in your mind I guess, you don't have to. For you it is a matter of faith.

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Soren

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #688 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 6:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:57pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:17pm:

"the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Their spirit is not in the world. And Jesus wouldn't be in the world today if his story was only a myth.
Arachne, Achilles, Odysseus are only myths and so they are not present in the world like Christ is.

Christ is in the world because human beings are experiencing him as being in the world - in a way they are nor experiencing Achilles or Odysseus to be in the world. Or Confucius or Lao-Tzu or Plato.

I don't know what it's like to experience the Buddha or Shiva. I suspect it's nothing like Christ.
Sacrifice is ungainsayable.

Given that, upon the lives and work of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle traditionally stands the western world as it came to be, its hard to say they are not alive in the sense that their shadow is not always upon us.

Given you claim you are not a Christian, your experience of Christ in the world should be no better informed than of Buddha or Shiva.

I don't think the spirit of ancient Greek philosophers is present in the world.

Nor is the spirit of the Buddha or Shiva - they have no universal impact.

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aquascoot

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Re: How gullible are some people?
Reply #689 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 6:41pm

Soren wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 6:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:57pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 9:17pm:

"the spirit of Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... The Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, even the mythical Shiva and Ganesha et al... Not contemporaries, granted... Much older.

Their spirit is not in the world. And Jesus wouldn't be in the world today if his story was only a myth.
Arachne, Achilles, Odysseus are only myths and so they are not present in the world like Christ is.

Christ is in the world because human beings are experiencing him as being in the world - in a way they are nor experiencing Achilles or Odysseus to be in the world. Or Confucius or Lao-Tzu or Plato.

I don't know what it's like to experience the Buddha or Shiva. I suspect it's nothing like Christ.
Sacrifice is ungainsayable.

Given that, upon the lives and work of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle traditionally stands the western world as it came to be, its hard to say they are not alive in the sense that their shadow is not always upon us.

Given you claim you are not a Christian, your experience of Christ in the world should be no better informed than of Buddha or Shiva.

I don't think the spirit of ancient Greek philosophers is present in the world.

Nor is the spirit of the Buddha or Shiva - they have no universal impact.

Buddhism has always struck me as an "underground" movement. It seems to seep in through the cracks. I think if it hasn't had a universal impact, theres a very good chance it will as the triumphalism of the science worshipping aethesit zealots will inevitably fall flat on its face, and Buddhism is the only "religion' which seems fit to meld with science and transcend it. There is little in Buddhism that people could argue with . I am talking about the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path, not the reincarnation mumbo jumbo which I consider hindu heresy that seeped into buddism

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