Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 10
Send Topic Print
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics (Read 18110 times)
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:44pm
 
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes.

I am not a moderate Muslim, I am a reformist. Rooting out corrupt practices can never be an act of mere moderation. Restoring integrity, or wholeness, is always a radical act. It transcends notions of left and right, emphasising the need to think independently. In Islam, independent thought has a strong history, not that you’d know it from the news about bombings, beheadings and bloodshed. ‘Jihad’ has become part of the West’s vocabulary and with good reason. But there is a lesser-known term in Islam — one that has the capacity to change the world for good.

The rest, including sound, here
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9169991/reclaiming-islam/

She identifies the problem: those who think Islam and freedom of expression - or just freedom - can be reconciled are not setting the agenda. Not even close.

NOT killing someone for a cartoon or other free expressions of ideas or beliefs doesn't balance out the killing of someone for a cartoon, for a book, for believing something, for not believing something, for expressing a view freely.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95619
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #1 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 12:30am
 
Potty time for the old boy.

What’s that in your mouth, old chap?

Miam miam.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pete Waldo
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 503
U.S.
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #2 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 1:42am
 
Muslim "reformist" - that's a good one! The poor deluded soul obviously doesn't live in the Middle East cradle of Islam, where Muhammad's faithful fundamental followers - who do as Muhammad did and instructed his followers to do - would be more than happy cut their head off as a "renegade" or "infidel" for such apostate "hypocrisy".

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrite...
"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.
Back to top
 

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
WWW  
IP Logged
 
wally1
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2055
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #3 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 6:56am
 
Soren wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:44pm:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes.

I am not a moderate Muslim, I am a reformist. Rooting out corrupt practices can never be an act of mere moderation. Restoring integrity, or wholeness, is always a radical act. It transcends notions of left and right, emphasising the need to think independently. In Islam, independent thought has a strong history, not that you’d know it from the news about bombings, beheadings and bloodshed. ‘Jihad’ has become part of the West’s vocabulary and with good reason. But there is a lesser-known term in Islam — one that has the capacity to change the world for good.

The rest, including sound, here
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9169991/reclaiming-islam/

She identifies the problem: those who think Islam and freedom of expression - or just freedom - can be reconciled are not setting the agenda. Not even close.

NOT killing someone for a cartoon or other free expressions of ideas or beliefs doesn't balance out the killing of someone for a cartoon, for a book, for believing something, for not believing something, for expressing a view freely.



Depends on the context.

Id have no quarrel with the people of afghnaistan, Iraq, Palestine, Chechnya etc to do anything to repel the enemy.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #4 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 8:01am
 
The Spectator article is paywalled and I can't find it reproduced anywhere Sad

Is someone with a subscription able to post the article?
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95619
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #5 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 8:10am
 
The old boy gets his news and views from Punch. Always, absolutely, etc.

Punch hasn’t been in circulation for about 30 years, but that doesn’t stop the old boy.

It is a jolly world, no?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #6 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 8:35am
 
wally1 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 6:56am:
Soren wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:44pm:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes.

I am not a moderate Muslim, I am a reformist. Rooting out corrupt practices can never be an act of mere moderation. Restoring integrity, or wholeness, is always a radical act. It transcends notions of left and right, emphasising the need to think independently. In Islam, independent thought has a strong history, not that you’d know it from the news about bombings, beheadings and bloodshed. ‘Jihad’ has become part of the West’s vocabulary and with good reason. But there is a lesser-known term in Islam — one that has the capacity to change the world for good.

The rest, including sound, here
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9169991/reclaiming-islam/

She identifies the problem: those who think Islam and freedom of expression - or just freedom - can be reconciled are not setting the agenda. Not even close.

NOT killing someone for a cartoon or other free expressions of ideas or beliefs doesn't balance out the killing of someone for a cartoon, for a book, for believing something, for not believing something, for expressing a view freely.



Depends on the context.

Id have no quarrel with the people of afghnaistan, Iraq, Palestine, Chechnya etc to do anything to repel the enemy.



How is rioting and killing over cartoons, books, films is 'repelling the enemy'?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95619
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #7 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:23am
 
Soren wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 8:35am:
wally1 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 6:56am:
Soren wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:44pm:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes.

I am not a moderate Muslim, I am a reformist. Rooting out corrupt practices can never be an act of mere moderation. Restoring integrity, or wholeness, is always a radical act. It transcends notions of left and right, emphasising the need to think independently. In Islam, independent thought has a strong history, not that you’d know it from the news about bombings, beheadings and bloodshed. ‘Jihad’ has become part of the West’s vocabulary and with good reason. But there is a lesser-known term in Islam — one that has the capacity to change the world for good.

The rest, including sound, here
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9169991/reclaiming-islam/

She identifies the problem: those who think Islam and freedom of expression - or just freedom - can be reconciled are not setting the agenda. Not even close.

NOT killing someone for a cartoon or other free expressions of ideas or beliefs doesn't balance out the killing of someone for a cartoon, for a book, for believing something, for not believing something, for expressing a view freely.



Depends on the context.

Id have no quarrel with the people of afghnaistan, Iraq, Palestine, Chechnya etc to do anything to repel the enemy.



How is rioting and killing over cartoons, books, films is 'repelling the enemy'?



How are articles about reforming Islam and "changing the world for good" about killing someone for a cartoon?

We can't tell. Your link has a paywall.

Unless - you're now selling subscriptions to the Spectator.

Jolly good, old chap. Extra, extra, read all about it.

Once a cheesedealer, always a cheesedealer. Always, absolutely, never ever - on stilts.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
wally1
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2055
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #8 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:34am
 
Irshad manji has little support in the Muslim community cause she is lesbian trying to make herself some female Islamic hero.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 40735
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #9 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:37am
 
islam is an extremist movement.
It is for fanatics.

want soimething moderate, try drugs or footy.
Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95619
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #10 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:49am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:37am:
islam is an extremist movement.
It is for fanatics.

want soimething moderate, try drugs or footy.


Drink wine in moderation, Sprint. There's a few nice wines coming out of your good country, no?

Of course, for your Muselman, wine and cheese are haram. Can you believe it? What a bunch of killjoys.

The old boy's on a campaign to carpet bomb the lot of them - including any other tinted races who get in the way. No good for cheese sales, you see. They'll never open up to new markets.

Always, absolutely, never ever - on stilton.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2014 at 11:58am by Karnal »  
 
IP Logged
 
moses
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6353
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #11 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:05pm
 
I suppose if the muslims keep it up, eventually islam and muslims will be reformed the same way Hiroshima and Nagasaki were.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
0ktema
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 674
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #12 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:16pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 8:01am:
The Spectator article is paywalled and I can't find it reproduced anywhere Sad

Is someone with a subscription able to post the article?



Quote:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how
Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes
351 Comments      Irshad Manji 29 March 2014

I am not a moderate Muslim, I am a reformist. Rooting out corrupt practices can never be an act of mere moderation. Restoring integrity, or wholeness, is always a radical act. It transcends notions of left and right, emphasising the need to think independently. In Islam, independent thought has a strong history, not that you’d know it from the news about bombings, beheadings and bloodshed. ‘Jihad’ has become part of the West’s vocabulary and with good reason. But there is a lesser-known term in Islam — one that has the capacity to change the world for good.

The idea is ‘ijtihad’, Islam’s tradition of questioning and reinterpreting. And it is absolutely fundamental to the spirit of the Qur’an. Islam’s scripture contains three times as many passages urging Muslims to think and rethink than verses promoting blind worship.

That’s nice in theory, but what about in fact? In the Islam of a millennium ago, ijtihad flourished. It was no coincidence that Islamic civilisation led the world in curiosity, creativity and ingenuity. But then the sun set on Islam’s golden age. Invaders from North Africa pillaged the pluralism of Muslim Spain. From Cordoba to Baghdad, much of the Islamic empire lapsed into defensiveness. Out of 135 schools of Sunni thought, just four survived. The gates of ijtihad narrowed and in some places closed, legitimising rigid readings of the Qur’an. To this day, Muslims still struggle with the idea of independent thought.

But a new generation of Muslims are pushing the boundaries. In growing numbers, we are speaking our truths to self-appointed authorities, be they our parents or their imams. I can attest to this because young Muslims have been sharing their stories with me since I wrote my book, The Trouble with Islam Today. It was published ten years ago, with the predictable noise from offended Muslims drowning out the support from many others.

Those others, often the children of conservatives, wrote to me about their desperation for a Muslim community that accepts their interfaith relationships. In 2007, I used my blog to publish a blessing of Muslim-Christian love, written in English by a scholarly imam who reinterpreted the Qur’an. It was downloaded so often that I had it translated into 20 more languages.

Last year, Al Jazeera aired an intense debate about Muslim reform between me and the British commentator Mehdi Hasan. Hate mail followed. So did love bombs. But I did not receive any death threats. To be sure, the reality remains that those who shatter age-old taboos within Islam do have to fear for their lives. While it is true that every religion has its extremists, in no other religion do mainstream believers routinely shrug off the murder of dissenters. This is a life-and-death difference. All the more reason for ijtihad to be revived in the 21st century.

Nowhere does the necessity of ijtihad seem more urgent than in the wars over freedom of expression. One might say that the UK led the way. More than 25 years ago, a puny hive of British Muslims demanded the death of novelist Salman Rushdie even before Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini issued his infamous fatwa.

Inline sub2

Earlier this year, I watched the British brouhaha over my friend Maajid Nawaz, the prospective Liberal Democrat candidate for Kilburn and co-founder of the counter-extremism outfit Quilliam. Nawaz had tweeted a cartoon called Jesus and Mo. Jesus to Mo: ‘Hey!’ Mo: ‘How ya doing?’ The end. That was it. Two top-tier prophets swapping props.

The problem for some Muslims is that, according to tradition, Muhammad cannot be depicted in image lest he become an object of worship. But by insisting that he cannot be drawn under any circumstances, these Muslims make the prophet off-limits to anyone who does not believe as they do. They thus turn Mo into, well, an object of worship. It leaves a lot of us wondering what, if anything, has been learned since the Danish cartoons fiasco eight years ago.

Then, you will recall, a handful of journalists, politicians, diplomats and mullahs in Denmark engineered an epic cultural crisis. Months earlier, the newspaper Jyllands-Posten had published images that supposedly mocked the Prophet Muhammad. Even after the paper apologised, the controversy grew. In different parts of the world, Muslims who rioted against Danish insensitivity silenced the more reasonable voices within their faith.

At the time, I received a lot of emails, mostly from young Muslims. ‘I am even more offended by the riots than by the cartoons!’ exclaimed Mahmood, a student whose reaction typified many others’. Fed up with one upheaval after another, the Muslims who contacted me channelled their frustration into an urgent sense that Muslims need to reform ourselves.


Continued ...

Back to top
 


"We Are Consciousness Itself"
- Adi Da Samraj
 
IP Logged
 
0ktema
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 674
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #13 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:17pm
 
Continued ... Quote:
The question is simple: can Islam be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes. The Qur’an points out that there will always be nonbelievers and that it is for God, not for Muslims, to deal with them: ‘The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills — let him believe; and whoever wills — let him disbelieve.’ (18:29). Moreover, the Qur’an states that there should ‘no compulsion in religion’. (2:256). Nobody should be forced to treat tradition as untouchable, including traditions that result in the messed-up Muslim habit of equating our very human prophet with an inviolable idol. Monotheists are to revere one God, not one of God’s emissaries. That is why humility requires people of faith to lampoon themselves, and each other, once in a while.

I can hear the reaction already: as a reformist, I am cherry-picking verses from the Qur’an. Given that the call for reflection suffuses the Qur’an, I am on terra firma in highlighting such little-known verses. It is my detractors who select on the shaky grounds of their own politics. After all, they ignore progressive Qur’anic passages, another one being about the liberty to choose one’s faith: ‘Unto you your religion, unto me my religion’ (109:6). While serving as grand mufti of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa quoted it to conclude that if a Muslim leaves Islam, no power in this earthly realm has the right to punish him or her. The verdict shocked Muslims in Egypt and beyond. Cultural conditioning dies hard.

That raises a new question. When Islam’s beloved messenger is satirised, should Muslims sit there and take it? Our scripture recommends that we cordially walk away from those who ridicule the faith. It also advises that we remain open towards the offenders. Pack up in peace, then pick up the conversation once the dust settles. Granted, this is not Socrates’ approach to dialogue — relentless, remorseless cross-examination — but neither does there have to be the unctuous exchange of platitudes that so often passes for interfaith dialogue.

During the Danish firestorm, the Muslims who contacted me demonstrated that we do not think uniformly. Some even challenged me to plaster the cartoons on my own website. After much consideration (as encouraged by the Qur’an), I posted links to all the caricatures. Among them were sketches depicting Muhammad as a paedophile and as a pig — images which had been fabricated by ultra-conservative Danish imams who falsely attributed them to Jyllands-Posten.

Hours after I uploaded the links, several readers emailed me in trepidation. Lise, a woman from Quebec, captured the sense of fear. ‘I am very happy that Canada does not publish these caricatures,’ she said. ‘We do not need the Islamic reaction.’ I agree. We do not need the Islamic reaction. We need diverse Islamic reactions: applause, revulsion, dismissal, embarrassment, nonviolent protest and peals of laughter.

The time has come for more of us, Muslim and non-Muslim, to hold the would-be censors to account by demonstrating moral courage. During my book tours, a pattern has emerged: on the campuses of western universities, good-hearted people whisper that they support my mission to reconcile Islam and freedom. Muslims fear community disapproval. Non-Muslims are terrified of being labelled bigots. Meanwhile, the Islam-supremacists who attend my lectures feel they have every right to champion their authoritarian interpretations of the Qur’an. The loathers of freedom appreciate their own freedom enough to deploy it to stifle the freedom of everyone else.

My call for moral courage is not about confrontation, but conversation. Ed Husain, the former jihadist who co-founded Quilliam, says he became radicalised in part by British society’s low expectations of him as a young Muslim. ‘Nobody ever said: you’re equal to us, you’re one of us, we’ll hold you to the same standards,’ he explains. ‘Nobody had the courage to stand up for liberal democracy without qualms. When people like us were holding events against women and gay people, where were our college principals and teachers?’

Those educators would only have needed to cite chapter 3, verse 7 of the Qur’an. It states that God and God alone knows the full truth of how the Qur’an ought to be interpreted. (The genius of this verse soon dawns on those who try refuting it with their seemingly superior knowledge.) Suppose the defenders of liberal democracy took five seconds to scrawl ‘Qur’an 3:7’ on pieces of paper and calmly handed them to the Islamists in their midst? No doubt, any such gesture will be greeted with the cry of ‘Islamophobe!’ You can set your clock to it. The obvious response to that is: ‘Why does encouraging dialogue make me an Islamophobe? Would I not be keeping my distance — out of fear — if I were phobic?’ Conversations start with searching questions.

This brings me to sound one cautionary note. Islamophobia does exist, and it infuriates me that some who wish to wipe Islam off the map actually believe that their agenda helps reformist Muslims. It does not. By defining Islam in the same dogmatic terms as Muslim extremists do, Islamophobes gift those extremists with the authority to decide what Islam must be. In which case, Islam-haters are the allies of Islam-supremacists — not of reformists.


Continued ...

Back to top
 


"We Are Consciousness Itself"
- Adi Da Samraj
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #14 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:19pm
 
Thank you Oktema  Smiley
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 10
Send Topic Print