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It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics (Read 18176 times)
Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #105 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:09pm
 
Did you ever study history, FD? Even just a little bit?

The past 500 years might be a good place to start.

Better get cracking. You might want to start with the European Age of Expansion.
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Soren
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #106 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:17pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 8:24pm:
Yadda wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 7:25pm:
But gandalf,

What about the vilification of non-moslems and demonisation of non-moslems, that is entrenched and promoted within ISLAMIC doctrines and a vilification which is present for all to see, contained within ISLAMIC religious texts ???


The islamic text I follow doesn't vilify. It preaches tolerance and freedoms. You don't deny the existence of these particular texts - you just argue that they have been abbrogated. But I follow them nonetheless.

Though I do not deny that vilification and demonisation of non-muslims exists in muslim communities and countries. And I also do not deny that in many instances it is institutionalised and justified on doctrinal grounds. You ask me what I think about this - I answer by saying it is unacceptable and must be fought.

But is there any point in me explaining? Since anything I say can simply be dismissed as deliberate deception - in line with the muslim doctrine of deceit called taqqiya right?


Taqqiya IS a Muslim doctrine.  As is the infallibility of the Koran.  And your 'fight' against the doctrinally justified vilification and demoniasation of non-Muslims  is commendable but evidently without any effect. You are weak horse of Islam and are just as afraid of the strong horses (violent jihadis) as non-Muslims are.

That you may - may - be the majority shows just how utterly ineffective you are. I think the majority are the opportunists - as in every religion - who will sniff the wind and trim their sails accordingly.  Which means you are not having a significant following because if you did you would have gotten rid of the monstrous head-hackers by now.

This is why people are suspicious of your pronouncements - you are evidently not speaking for Islam because if you did, the head-hackers wouldn't be setting the agenda for Islam.
You would.  But you aren't. You are cowering like the rest of us. You hold forth among infidels here - here where you are safe.







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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #107 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:21pm
 
Doesn’t sound like you support G’s right to follow a belief system that preaches tolerance and freedoms, FD.  Rather he got stoned for apostacy, eh?

You know what you are, FD? You’re a libertarian. A proud defender of free speech and human rights.
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #108 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:29pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:17pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 8:24pm:
Yadda wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 7:25pm:
But gandalf,

What about the vilification of non-moslems and demonisation of non-moslems, that is entrenched and promoted within ISLAMIC doctrines and a vilification which is present for all to see, contained within ISLAMIC religious texts ???


The islamic text I follow doesn't vilify. It preaches tolerance and freedoms. You don't deny the existence of these particular texts - you just argue that they have been abbrogated. But I follow them nonetheless.

Though I do not deny that vilification and demonisation of non-muslims exists in muslim communities and countries. And I also do not deny that in many instances it is institutionalised and justified on doctrinal grounds. You ask me what I think about this - I answer by saying it is unacceptable and must be fought.

But is there any point in me explaining? Since anything I say can simply be dismissed as deliberate deception - in line with the muslim doctrine of deceit called taqqiya right?


Taqqiya IS a Muslim doctrine.  As is the infallibility of the Koran.  And your 'fight' against the doctrinally justified vilification and demoniasation of non-Muslims  is commendable but evidently without any effect. You are weak horse of Islam and are just as afraid of the strong horses (violent jihadis) as non-Muslims are.

That you may - may - be the majority shows just how utterly ineffective you are. I think the majority are the opportunists - as in every religion - who will sniff the wind and trim their sails accordingly.  Which means you are not having a significant following because if you did you would have gotten rid of the monstrous head-hackers by now.

This is why people are suspicious of your pronouncements - you are evidently not speaking for Islam because if you did, the head-hackers wouldn't be setting the agenda for Islam.
You would.  But you aren't. You are cowering like the rest of us. You hold forth among infidels here - here where you are safe.




Cowerering, are we? Where did you say you lived, dear boy?

South Sudan, was it?

Better get yourself an armoured Mercedes. Everyone who’s anyone has one, old chap.
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Soren
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #109 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:38pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Militant Islamic groups in both these countries are rare - as they are through most of the Muslim world.

If I’m wrong, please show me where and how. 



Most of the killing in the name of Islam occur where there is a significant Muslim minority population or where Muslims are the majority.

Most of the dead are other Muslims. There is an awful lot of infidel murdering going on but it is still other Muslims that Muslims seem to prefer to murder in the name of Islam

Islam has been at war with itself since the day Mohammed died and what started the bloodshed then remains unresolved today. In the globalised world we have today, Islam's civil war of 1400 years is now touching everyone. Importing Muslims, the world is importing Islam's civil war.

Islam cannot withstand critical scrutiny - that's why it wants to make it illegal through UN channels. Once it is subjected to critical scrutiny, it will collapse.
This is why they murder cartoonists, film-makers, novelists, translators, and menace anyone who is critical of Islam. Mohammed was stupid enough to stipulate the Koran's infallibility and eternal existence. There is no room for reform and adjustment. Criticism is the death of Islam, and that's why they will kill you for it.




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polite_gandalf
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #110 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:04pm:
You spend most of your time denying that it exists.


That demonization and vilification of non-muslims happens in parts of the muslim world?

You are mistaken my friend.

You really should spend more time understanding what I actually say FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #111 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:51pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:38pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Militant Islamic groups in both these countries are rare - as they are through most of the Muslim world.

If I’m wrong, please show me where and how. 



Most of the killing in the name of Islam occur where there is a significant Muslim minority population or where Muslims are the majority.

Most of the dead are other Muslims. There is an awful lot of infidel murdering going on but it is still other Muslims that Muslims seem to prefer to murder in the name of Islam

Islam has been at war with itself since the day Mohammed died and what started the bloodshed then remains unresolved today. In the globalised world we have today, Islam's civil war of 1400 years is now touching everyone. Importing Muslims, the world is importing Islam's civil war.

Islam cannot withstand critical scrutiny - that's why it wants to make it illegal through UN channels. Once it is subjected to critical scrutiny, it will collapse.
This is why they murder cartoonists, film-makers, novelists, translators, and menace anyone who is critical of Islam. Mohammed was stupid enough to stipulate the Koran's infallibility and eternal existence. There is no room for reform and adjustment. Criticism is the death of Islam, and that's why they will kill you for it.




So that’s why you’re cowering - all those posts you’ve written about the Muselman on this board. I see.

So why don’t you just learn to be nice and let them all kill each other off?

You Freudians. You have to be confrontational, don’t you.
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Yadda
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #112 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:58pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:46pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:04pm:
You spend most of your time denying that it exists.


That demonization and vilification of non-muslims happens in parts of the muslim world?

You are mistaken my friend.

You really should spend more time understanding what I actually say FD.




gandalf,

The demonization and vilification of non-muslims happens, here on this very OzPol forum too, my friend!


e.g.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1396356294/97#97
Quote:

This is not the FD that started this forum - where you would pounce on anything even remotely prejudicial and vilifying against muslims - as any honest and objective contributor should.

Now you are an apologist for the most heinous and offensive bigotry, and regularly chip in with your own ignorant trash.





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #113 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:00pm
 
awww poor FD.

Will you give him a hug for me Y?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #114 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:05pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:51pm:
You Freudians. You have to be confrontational, don’t you.


...



Feelings, nothing more than feelings..


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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polite_gandalf
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #115 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:07pm
 
Sorry Y, just as an addendum to that, see if you can see any distinction between...

1. All muslims are lying deceitful undesirables who should be expelled from our country and go to hell

2. one individual on this forum has articulated arguments that make him an apologist for bigotry

I'm with you Y - number 2 is demonization and vilification of the worst kind, while number 1 is just healthy free speech.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #116 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:00pm:

awww poor FD.

Will you give him a hug for me Y?




gandalf,

FD does not gag YOUR opinions [nor delete any of your posts], because FD is [comfortable, and] happy for you [and everyone] to express their opinions and points of view.


gandalf,

Go to any moslem run forum.

They gag, and delete opinions they do not agree with.




gandalf,

The difference between Freediver, and yourself,
.....is that Freediver is NOT a moslem.

But you are.





Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.



What is ISLAM ???

And what violence against 'disbelievers' does ISLAM sanction require, form the part of a true moslem ?


ISLAMIC law....

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260






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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #117 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:19pm
 
gandalf,

The difference between Freediver, and yourself,
.....is that Freediver is NOT a moslem.

But you are.




gandalf,

You are a moslem.

And you are a 'flag' in the political wind.

And as soon as, the instant the political wind favours moslems, you will become a Jihadist.

Why so ?

Because you are a moslem gandalf.


i.e.
You are not a sincere person, you are a moslem gandalf.

When the day arrives, you will 'expiate' your oath to pluralism, and to Australian standards of tolerance.

You are a moslem gandalf.

You declare that, to us, every day!








"Love is not love Which alters when it alteration"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295407319/0#0
Quote:

From the Koran, Hadith;

Allah told Mohammed, it is OK to not fulfil the oaths you make.
i.e. If you find something better, you are free to go, and make a better deal, and abandon your first oath.

"Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise."
Koran 66:2

"The Prophet said, "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath."."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.067.427
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.078.618
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.709
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.710
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.712
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.715

"expiate my oath", means an obligation to Allah of penance [Kaffara], e.g. fasting for three days, or to clothe or feed poor people.


"If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.261


"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: An oath or a vow about something over which a human being has no control, and to disobey Allah, and to break ties of relationship is not binding. If anyone takes an oath and then considers something else better than it, he should give it up, and do what is better, for leaving it is its atonement."
hadithsunnah/abudawud/ #021.3268



"Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "Whoever swears by Allah and then says, 'Allah willing' and then does not do what he has sworn to, has not broken his oath." "
hadithsunnah/muwatta/ #022.22.6.10
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Pete Waldo
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #118 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:37pm
 
0ktema wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:50pm:
Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:52pm:
Though nobody has all the answers, nor a franchise on truth.


Without much doubt ... you would seem to have set up a fairly secure world for yourself - backed up by all your chosen scripture and literal interpretation there of.


It isn't me that set it up, but the one great God Yahweh through His 1600 year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants over 3500 years.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_con...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Regarding your peculiar suggestion of a "literal interpretation there of", the very post you are replying to discussed Revelation chapter 13, and a 7-headed, 10-horned "beast", that I understand to be a kingdom - not a 7-headed, 10-horned beast. The post also specifically discussed my NOT taking the figurative language of prophetic dreams and visions literally.
So how did your reading and comprehension skills cause to come up with your opposite suggestion?

0ktema wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:50pm:
Personally I started to overcome Christian exclusivity at the ripe old age of 9.


Whether you intended it or not you are saying you overcame the Gospel.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Regarding "exclusivity", had you been, and remained, ignorant to the gospel, you may not have been held accountable:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But if you had understood the Gospel, and then rejected it, that is a different matter:

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Did you even understand the nature of your claim? We all generally credit 9 year olds with possessing great wisdom don't we? How many years prior to your turning 9 did you spend in Bible study, apologetics, study of Biblical prophecy and archaeology and such?

What was it that caused you to desire to "overcome" Christianity? Was it fulfilled Bible prophecy that too clearly demonstrates the veracity of the Gospel record?

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

So what is one prophecy that was "written in the Psalms" that Jesus was making reference to?

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

That passage was penned before crucifixion had even been invented. The details are confirmed as fulfilled by the New Testament witnesses.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
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0ktema
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #119 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 1:27am
 
Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 10:37pm:
0ktema wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:50pm:
Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:52pm:
Though nobody has all the answers, nor a franchise on truth.


Without much doubt ... you would seem to have set up a fairly secure world for yourself - backed up by all your chosen scripture and literal interpretation there of.


It isn't me that set it up, but the one great God Yahweh through His 1600 year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants over 3500 years.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_con...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

0ktema wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 11:50pm:
Personally I started to overcome Christian exclusivity at the ripe old age of 9.


Whether you intended it or not you are saying you overcame the Gospel.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Regarding "exclusivity", had you been, and remained, ignorant to the gospel, you may not have been held accountable:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But if you had understood the Gospel, and then rejected it, that is a different matter:

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Did you even understand the nature of your claim? We all generally credit 9 year olds with possessing great wisdom don't we? How many years prior to your turning 9 did you spend in Bible study, apologetics, study of Biblical prophecy and archaeology and such?

What was it that caused you to desire to "overcome" Christianity? Was it fulfilled Bible prophecy that too clearly demonstrates the veracity of the Gospel record?

That passage was penned before crucifixion had even been invented. The details are confirmed as fulfilled by the New Testament witnesses.



Beyond any possible omissions and possible changes made (by the hand of man) over the history of the recorded Bible - Jesus is considered to be the only person who was one with God and therefore without fallibility. Everyone else even his disciples were not perfect and so whatever they communicate in the gospels indeed may not be totally infallible.

In my King James Bible, that which is printed in red (the actual record of Jesus spoken word) is what I give most regard.

To truly follow Jesus' example is a spiritual matter well beyond the mere quoting of scripture.

When Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The "I am" he refers to is his very state, his oneness with God and his fullness of Spirit.

In other words, self transcendence or moving beyond the ego is the only way to truly know God.
This is true communion, true salvation and real faith. The making of room for the decent of the Holy Spirit.

The belief that one can be saved by the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus (himself) is convenient cop-out from the serious effort and practice of real self sacrifice or the moment by moment transcendence of the loveless activity that is the ego.

The essence of the story of Jesus life is - knowing his (God's) love and sharing it with all others.

Those that merely quote scripture an law in an effort to prove their superiority of knowledge, the veracity of their search or such, are simply playing the same game that the Pharisees tried to play with Jesus! 

...............................

Almost certainly what I have posted above will mean little to you, other than you assuming that I shall suffer eternal damnation if I do not repent - as you seem very convinced as to the truth of your apparent convictions and would seem to have invested a lot of time and effort developing them. 
Que Sera, Sera Pete.

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