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It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics (Read 18124 times)
0ktema
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #15 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:19pm
 
Continued ... Quote:
For me, embracing freedom is an act of faith. Recognising the Almighty’s infinite wisdom means acknowledging my limited human wisdom. As a monotheist, I am not God. Nor am I entitled to behave as God. Hence my duty to let a thousand nonviolent flowers bloom. In short, to devote myself to Allah is to love liberty.

Irshad Manji is founder of the Moral Courage Project at New York University. She is the author most recently of Allah, Liberty and Love.

This article first appeared in the print edition of The Spectator magazine, dated 29 March 2014
Tags: freedom of expression, Islam, Maajid Nawaz, Mehdi Hasan, Religion      
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freediver
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #16 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 7:50pm
 
I've often wondered what you are left with once you take away all the nasty bits. For some reason the Muslims here have only ever given vague platitudes, going little beyond "Muhammed said to be nice to people". For example - if you beat your wife, you are not the nicest person. Or, it is a good thing to free slaves. The difficulty I see with this is that there are so many specific examples of Muhammed going against the vague but good principles, and none of him standing up for them with any sort of consistency. Any noble principle can only be fully understood with examples of people carrying them out, not just when it is convenient to do so, but most importantly when the personal cost of sticking to your principles is high. To me this seems like an insurmountable barrier to a progressive reclamation of Islam.
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Soren
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #17 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 8:31pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 7:50pm:
I've often wondered what you are left with once you take away all the nasty bits. For some reason the Muslims here have only ever given vague platitudes, going little beyond "Muhammed said to be nice to people". For example - if you beat your wife, you are not the nicest person. Or, it is a good thing to free slaves. The difficulty I see with this is that there are so many specific examples of Muhammed going against the vague but good principles, and none of him standing up for them with any sort of consistency. Any noble principle can only be fully understood with examples of people carrying them out, not just when it is convenient to do so, but most importantly when the personal cost of sticking to your principles is high. To me this seems like an insurmountable barrier to a progressive reclamation of Islam.



I think this is a good point.  There is submission in Islam, but no sacrifice.

Principles do not come into it, only conformity with prescribed/proscribed performance. What you think does not matter. What you perform - say, do - that's all that matters. That is why there is no freedom of conscience in a religion called Submission.

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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #18 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 7:50pm:
I've often wondered what you are left with once you take away all the nasty bits. For some reason the Muslims here have only ever given vague platitudes, going little beyond "Muhammed said to be nice to people". For example - if you beat your wife, you are not the nicest person. Or, it is a good thing to free slaves. The difficulty I see with this is that there are so many specific examples of Muhammed going against the vague but good principles, and none of him standing up for them with any sort of consistency. .


There is some truth to this, FD, but I can’t think of one prophet in the Judeo-Christian tradition who was written as perfect.

Just as the Greco Roman gods were far from perfect. More accurately, they were flawed.

Islam is not about Muhammed, it’s about Allah. All those rules about prohibiting Muhammed’s image are to avoid deification - Islam’s charge against Christianity.

Prophets are flawed, as we all are. If they’re not, they should be.

Muhammed is not the only prophet of Allah, but Allah is the only God. God has many prophets - Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, etc, etc, etc. This is the teaching of Islam.

If Muslims don’t understand this, it’s not Allah’s problem. There were prophets before, and there will be prophets again.

Many Muslims do understand this. These,are spiritual issues, not legal or political ones. Simplicity, humility and charity are not just political virtues. These values bring people closer to what lies within them - what some call God.

This is what Islam is. This is what Christianity is. This is what every spiritual tradition ultimately is.

If you don’t understand it, submit your intellect to a new way of seeing. Many spend lifetimes doing this, and some are Muslims.

There are many books, but Allah is only found in silence - this is the teaching of Islam.

All else is just a giggle.

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #19 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:35pm
 
Five pillars of Islam:
Shahadah: declaring there is no god except God, and Muhammad is God's Messenger
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the blessed month of Ramadan
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime if he/she is able to

I see nothing spiritual. It's all performance.



Christianity:
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?
And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'…
The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Love. Hmm. Not a performance but something in the heart.


I see no overlap whatsoever.

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #20 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:36pm
 
Quote:
Islam is not about Muhammed, it’s about Allah.


Oh. Silly me. Silly Muslims.

Quote:
God has many prophets - Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, etc, etc, etc. This is the teaching of Islam.


I think it leaves out the eastern religions.

Quote:
If Muslims don’t understand this, it’s not Allah’s problem. There were prophets before, and there will be prophets again.


I don't think Islam teaches that either.

Quote:
This is what Islam is. This is what Christianity is. This is what every spiritual tradition ultimately is.


Except that Islam is also a legal and political tradition. When Muhammed consulted Allah and withdrew his ban on wife beating, it was not a statement of spirituality. It was a statement of law, direct from Allah.
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #21 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:42pm
 
Quote:
Those educators would only have needed to cite chapter 3, verse 7 of the Qur’an. It states that God and God alone knows the full truth of how the Qur’an ought to be interpreted. (The genius of this verse soon dawns on those who try refuting it with their seemingly superior knowledge.) Suppose the defenders of liberal democracy took five seconds to scrawl ‘Qur’an 3:7’ on pieces of paper and calmly handed them to the Islamists in their midst? No doubt, any such gesture will be greeted with the cry of ‘Islamophobe!’ You can set your clock to it. The obvious response to that is: ‘Why does encouraging dialogue make me an Islamophobe? Would I not be keeping my distance — out of fear — if I were phobic?’ Conversations start with searching questions.





You can't have a conversation with people who want to kill you for thinking differently.

Otherwise lovely idea.

The bottom line - the reasonable Muslims have ceded the field to the murderous jihadist because they are, like everyone else, afraid of them. The reasonable Muslims ARE the weak horse, the cowards, the people who are ultimately responsible for Islam's reputation.

If these reasonable Muslims are indeed the majority of Muslims which is by no means assured.

How would anyone know??






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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #22 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:54pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:36pm:
Quote:
Islam is not about Muhammed, it’s about Allah.


Oh. Silly me. Silly Muslims.

Quote:
God has many prophets - Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, etc, etc, etc. This is the teaching of Islam.


I think it leaves out the eastern religions.

Quote:
If Muslims don’t understand this, it’s not Allah’s problem. There were prophets before, and there will be prophets again.


I don't think Islam teaches that either.

Quote:
This is what Islam is. This is what Christianity is. This is what every spiritual tradition ultimately is.


Except that Islam is also a legal and political tradition. When Muhammed consulted Allah and withdrew his ban on wife beating, it was not a statement of spirituality. It was a statement of law, direct from Allah.


Islam teaches all those things I’ve mentioned. Read Persian poetry, hear Sufi singing, see the carvings, architecture and ceramics of the Moors.

The law from Allah, as in the Bible, comes from.disciplined self study and patience. These laws are only revealled through wisdom.

Islam is much less legalistic than other traditions, including Hinduism and Medieval Catholicism. Islam, like every other religious tradition we know, has changed from time to time and place to place.

You see? Always, absolutely, never ever. Times, people - and prophets - change. Islamic cosmology speaks of an ever-increasing complexity in the universe. Of course laws change.

According to Islam, only Allah doesn’t change.
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #23 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:00pm
 
Quote:
Islam teaches all those things I’ve mentioned. Read Persian poetry, hear Sufi singing, see the carvings, architecture and ceramics of the Moors.


Great. Pottery and wife beating. But the pottery is really nice.

Quote:
The law from Allah, as in the Bible, comes from.disciplined self study and patience. These laws are only revealled through wisdom.


No Karnal. Muhammed asked Allah. Allah said it is OK to beat your wife. That is how the law was revealed. No amount of studying can change that.

Quote:
Islam is much less legalistic than other traditions, including Hinduism and Medieval Catholicism. Islam, like every other religious tradition we know, has changed from time to time and place to place.


You might as well insist Islam does not exist.

Quote:
Times, people - and prophets - change.


I have no idea what you are trying to say. Muslims are not going to reinvent Muhammed himself. The best they can do is "re-interpret" what they have, but this is always limited by the reality of Muhammed and the Koran. There is only so much you can polish a turd.
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #24 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:02pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:35pm:
Five pillars of Islam:
Shahadah: declaring there is no god except God, and Muhammad is God's Messenger
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the blessed month of Ramadan
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime if he/she is able to

I see nothing spiritual. It's all performance.



You don’t look for anything spiritual. What do you expect?

Mormor’s panties hanging on the line?

The aim of all that praying and submitting is spiritual awakening.

As a Freudian, of course, you won’t understand this. Where there was id, there shall Mormor’s skidmarks be.
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« Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:15pm by Karnal »  
 
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #25 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:00pm:
Quote:
Islam teaches all those things I’ve mentioned. Read Persian poetry, hear Sufi singing, see the carvings, architecture and ceramics of the Moors.


Great. Pottery and wife beating. But the pottery is really nice.

Quote:
The law from Allah, as in the Bible, comes from.disciplined self study and patience. These laws are only revealled through wisdom.


No Karnal. Muhammed asked Allah. Allah said it is OK to beat your wife. That is how the law was revealed. No amount of studying can change that.

Quote:
Islam is much less legalistic than other traditions, including Hinduism and Medieval Catholicism. Islam, like every other religious tradition we know, has changed from time to time and place to place.


You might as well insist Islam does not exist.

Quote:
Times, people - and prophets - change.


I have no idea what you are trying to say. Muslims are not going to reinvent Muhammed himself. The best they can do is "re-interpret" what they have, but this is always limited by the reality of Muhammed and the Koran. There is only so much you can polish a turd.


You’ve clearly done some reading on this, FD.

Abu and Falah, was it?
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #26 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:13pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:54pm:
[quote author=freediver link=1396356294/20#20 date=1396438576]

Islam is much less legalistic than other traditions, including Hinduism and Medieval Catholicism.



Funny. Who was speaking out of Hinduism or Medieval Christianity on any of these threads?

Islam is infinitely more legalistic than modern Christianity of secularism or humanism. It is even more legalistic than orthodox Judaism not to mention reformed Judaism. It is beaten only by ultra-orthodox Judaism.

Sufis are persecuted and killed in most Muslim countries, Mother Pakistan once again at the forefront. Spiritual Islam, innit.


PB, you are talking pap (when you are not talking gibberish, that is).


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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #27 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:16pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:02pm:
Soren wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:35pm:
Five pillars of Islam:
Shahadah: declaring there is no god except God, and Muhammad is God's Messenger
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the blessed month of Ramadan
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime if he/she is able to

I see nothing spiritual. It's all performance.



You don’t look for anything spiritual. What do you expect?

Mormor’s panties hanging on the line?

The aim of all that praying and submitting is spiritual awakening.

As a Freudian, of course, you won’t understand this. Where there was Mormor’s skidmarks, there shall ego be.



Point us to the spiritual passages (ahem) of the Koran, will ya?


I have pointed you to the core of Christianity, as spelled out by it's founder. Show us the spiritual core of Islam as spelled out by Mohammed.

Ta.



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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #28 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:26pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:54pm:
[quote author=freediver link=1396356294/20#20 date=1396438576]

Islam is much less legalistic than other traditions, including Hinduism and Medieval Catholicism.



Funny. Who was speaking out of Hinduism or Medieval Christianity on any of these threads?

Islam is infinitely more legalistic than modern Christianity of secularism or humanism. It is even more legalistic than orthodox Judaism not to mention reformed Judaism. It is beaten only by ultra-orthodox Judaism.

Sufis are persecuted and killed in most Muslim countries, Mother Pakistan once again at the forefront. Spiritual Islam, innit.


PB, you are talking pap (when you are not talking gibberish, that is).




Plop.

Sufis have, in times past, been in the ascendant. Fundamentalist Islam is no better than fundamentalist Christianity or ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

I wouldn’t stick my neck out for Inquisitors, Zealots or the Taliban.

This doesn’t make one quarter of the world’s population intrinsically better than another quarter. Islam is about submission to the same God as the rest of humanity - not the deification of a prophet.

There is no way you can pretend anything otherwise. I have met a few fundamentalist Muslims, and even they stipulated the above. There is no God but God - that’s the faith.

Do with this what you will.
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #29 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:33pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:16pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:02pm:
Soren wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:35pm:
Five pillars of Islam:
Shahadah: declaring there is no god except God, and Muhammad is God's Messenger
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the blessed month of Ramadan
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime if he/she is able to

I see nothing spiritual. It's all performance.



You don’t look for anything spiritual. What do you expect?

Mormor’s panties hanging on the line?

The aim of all that praying and submitting is spiritual awakening.

As a Freudian, of course, you won’t understand this. Where there was Mormor’s skidmarks, there shall ego be.



Point us to the spiritual passages (ahem) of the Koran, will ya?



Will you wank me off in return?

Personally, I haven’t read anything in the Koran that’s sung to me personally, so don’t ask me about the Koran.

Read it yourself.
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