Australian Politics Forum - It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics

Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #60 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 7:44pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Christianity and Islam have there roots (and much of their law) based in scripture and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament.

While no shortage of folks that don't bother to investigate the facts have been duped into parroting that, name dropping of Old Testament prophets by the real authors of the Quran (like Jabr, Waraqa bin Naufal and Tubba), and Islamic so-called "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th-10th centuries AD, do not constitute "roots". Particularly when the result is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that revealed through the 1600 year record of the one true God to mankind.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Islamic "tradition" is in fact not rooted in Old Testament "law" but provably in Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. Why on earth do you think they prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol five times a day? Where does the Old Testament do other than contain historical record of Yahweh's wrath and punishment for venerating idols?
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Islam is a preposterous fraud that fails epically when investigated through history, archaeology or physical geography. There is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196
http://www.historyofmecca.com

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:18pm by Pete Waldo »

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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #61 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 8:52pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Christianity and Islam have there roots (and much of their law) based in scripture and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament.

While no shortage of folks that haven't bothered to investigate the facts have been duped into parroting that, name dropping of Old Testament prophets by the real authors of the Quran (like Jabr, Waraqa bin Naufal and Tubba), and Islamic so-called "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th-10th centuries AD, do not constitute "roots". Particularly when the result is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that revealed through the 1600 year record of the one true God to mankind.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Islam is ANTICHRIST
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854

Islamic "tradition" is in fact specifically not rooted in Old Testament "law" but provably rooted in Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. Why on earth do you think they prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol five times a day? Where does the Old Testament do other than contain historical record of instances of Yahweh's wrath and punishment for venerating idols?
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

The geographical impossibility of Islamic so-called "tradition" is a preposterous fraud that fails epically when investigated through the lenses of scripture, history, archaeology or physical geography. There is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196
http://www.historyofmecca.com

Pete, please note the word "times" that I specifically included in the original post of mine that you have quoted ... "Christianity and Islam have there roots (and much of their law) based in scripture and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament"
... Roll Eyes

Anyway, it was a broad statement merely leading on to the real import of my post! ... Wink

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2014 at 8:59pm by 0ktema »

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #62 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:28pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Christianity and Islam have there roots (and much of their law) based in scripture and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament.

While no shortage of folks that haven't bothered to investigate the facts have been duped into parroting that, name dropping of Old Testament prophets by the real authors of the Quran (like Jabr, Waraqa bin Naufal and Tubba), and Islamic so-called "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th-10th centuries AD, do not constitute "roots". Particularly when the result is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that revealed through the 1600 year record of the one true God to mankind.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Islam is ANTICHRIST
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854

Islamic "tradition" is in fact specifically not rooted in Old Testament "law" but provably rooted in Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. Why on earth do you think they prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol five times a day? Where does the Old Testament do other than contain historical record of instances of Yahweh's wrath and punishment for venerating idols?
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

The geographical impossibility of Islamic so-called "tradition" is a preposterous fraud that fails epically when investigated through the lenses of scripture, history, archaeology or physical geography. There is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196
http://www.historyofmecca.com

Pete, please note the word "times" that I specifically included in the original post of mine that you have quoted ... "Christianity and Islam have there roots (and
much of their law based in scripture
)
and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament"
... Roll Eyes

0k4now please note that I was responding to your false premise. You indicated that Islam has roots
and "much of their law based in scripture
" in the Old Testament. Which "practice developed in the
times
of the Old Testament" does Islam follow? Prostrating toward the Quraish pagans black stone idol in Mecca? Running back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah as the Arabian jinn-devil worshipers did? "Fasting" by day during the same month of Ramadan as the Sabian/Harranian moon god worshipers did?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

For pity's sake Muhammad even switched his "holy" day from the Sabbath to Friday, and the quibla his followers were to pray toward from Jerusalem to the Quraish pagan's kaaba in Mecca, after the Hijra.

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

Anyway, it was a broad statement merely leading on to the real import of my post! ... Wink

I was pointing out to you that you started off with a false premise. I'll address the rest of your post next.

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:27pm by Pete Waldo »

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #63 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:48pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Christianity and Islam have there roots (and much of their law) based in scripture and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament.

Islamic reformists struggle to show/claim abrogation of many of the more violent and punitive laws and measures within Islam using ijtihad (independent reasoning).

Gwaffaw! "independent reasoning" is the antithesis of Islam. What this suggests is exactly contrary to the rules of abrogation which are based on chronology. Muhammad's later suras that call for violence against non-Muslims abrogate his earlier Mecca drivel like "no compulsion in religion", that he obviously regretted reciting prior to the Hijra, which is obviously why he instituted the doctrine of abrogation. Does anybody really think God would be that confused?

Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

The abrogated obviously has to be earlier in order to "replace" it with the abrogator.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abrogation_quran.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

This view is seen as heretical by traditional Islamic scholars from the major schools of thought.

Because it is.

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Many (so called) Islamic heretics have and still are being killed because of their views ... similarly many (so called) Christian heretics were put to death during the inquisitions etc.

Not at all similar. Nowhere does the Gospel sanction the historical Roman Church murder of Christians, or Jews or Muslims as the Roman Church did. Those unregenerate Godless murderers acted exactly contrary to what is commanded of Christians in the Gospel.

While Sunnis murder Shiites as "apostates", making their case through the quran and hadith.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm

To be continued

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:16pm by Pete Waldo »

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #64 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:57pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

The advantages Christianity has had in moving forward (beyond old testament times) are unfortunately not greatly shared by Islam.

Jesus (as the central focus of Christianity and exemplar of the epitome it's practice) was not greatly moved to violence beyond perhaps the up-turning of a few tables.

Muhammad on the other hand was not (at various times) avert to high levels of violence being used to achieve his goals. His life and practice as recorded in the Hadiths is largely used as the exemplar for Islamic practice.

Not only through example, but through command.

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle....

And specifically against Yahweh's people:

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Many modern Islamic reformists would seem to come from the minor school of thought known as Quranism and they certainly have quite an uphill battle ahead of them.

Without wholesale editing of the Quran and Hadith it is an impossible battle. And for what? To continue to follow THE false prophet Muhammad alone thereby specifically DISBELIEVING the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, DENYING and blaspheming the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood as articles of faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

[quote]Liberal movements within Islam involve Muslims who have produced a considerable body of liberal thought[1][2] on the re-interpretation and reform of Islamic understanding and practice. Their work is sometimes characterised as "progressive Islam" (Arabic: الإسلام التقدمي‎ al-Islām at-taqaddumī ), although some consider progressive Islam and liberal Islam to be two distinct movements.[3]

The methodologies of liberal or progressive Islam rest on the interpretation and re-interpretation of traditional Islamic scripture (the Qu'ran) and other texts (such as the Hadith), a process called ijtihad (see below).[4] This can vary from the slight to the most liberal, where only the meaning of the Qur'an is considered to be a revelation while its expression in words is the work of the prophet Muhammad at his particular time and context. As a consequence, verses from the Qur'an may then be interpreted allegorically or even set aside.

Ya right! Islamic scholars would really go for that. "Oh well, let's just set this part aside"! I think I can guess how even the liberal Muslims in this forum will weigh in on that.

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:18pm by Pete Waldo »

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #65 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:08pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

The most liberal Muslim intellectuals who have focused on religious reform include Muhammad Ali, Sayyid al-Qimni, Nasr Abu Zayd, Khalil Abdel-Karim, Abdolkarim Soroush, Mohammed Arkoun, Mohammed Shahrour, Ahmed Subhy Mansour, Edip Yuksel, Gamal al-Banna, Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im, Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, Ahmed Al-Gubbanchi, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, and Faraj Foda. The last two of these, Taha and Foda, were killed in the wake of claims of apostasy, while most of the others have been accused of apostasy by traditional Islamic scholars.

Exactly. Because they are.

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

Some liberal Muslims claim that they are returning to the principles of the early Ummah and to the ethical and pluralistic intent of their scripture,.....

Self deluded nonsense.

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

That was about Satan's band of mass murdering, cutthroat, prisoner raping, thieves, taking down Yahweh's people of the literate, moral, faithful, peaceful, productive Jewish tribe of the Banu Qurayza.
http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

..... the Qur'an.[5] They distance themselves from some traditional and less liberal interpretations of Islamic law, as they consider these to be culturally based and without universal applicability. The reform movement uses monotheism ......

Muhammadans cite the term "monotheism" as if it were a religion in and of itself. Of course if it were, then the monotheistic sect of the Sabian moon god worshipers must have had it right all along!

They falsely accuse polytheism of Christians even as they believe Muhammad's "Allah" has a spirit, and Muhammad declared himself to be an intercessor.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_trinity.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:06am:

...... (tawhid) "as an organizing principle for human society and the basis of religious knowledge, history, metaphysics, aesthetics, and ethics, as well as social, economic and world order."[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

Quote:

Quranism (Arabic: قرآنيون‎ Qurʾāniyūn, Quraniyoon) is an Islamic movement that holds the Qur'an to be the only authentic source of Islamic faith. Quranists generally reject, therefore, the religious authority of hadith. This is in contrast to the Sunni, Shia and Ibadi doctrines, which consider hadith essential for Islamic faith.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:20pm by Pete Waldo »

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics Reply #66 - Apr 4^th, 2014 at 10:09pm Message to offended Muslims Gist: You are far more offensive than you think. Note well: 4:35 to the end.
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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #67 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:28pm:

I was pointing out to you that you started off with a false premise. I'll address the rest of your post next.

I will admit my first sentence in particular wasn't structured very well at all ... damn I wish they had taught better use of grammar and correct sentence structure in my school days ... lol

Never mind. My post at the very least has served as grist for your mill ... Wink

You do make some very relevant points amidst the totality of your dissection and criticism of my post. However it's probably a pity ... but I think many of these points may be somewhat subsequently lost within the carnage and dismemberment and also by a certain amount of Christian self-righteousness that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:28pm by 0ktema »

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics Reply #68 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:41am 0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am: ... and also by a certain amount of Christian self-righteousness that sneaks through in your lengthy replies. 'sneaks through' ... luv it! ****** Good one, Soren.
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Karnal

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #69 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:31am

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:28pm:

I was pointing out to you that you started off with a false premise. I'll address the rest of your post next.

I will admit my first sentence in particular wasn't structured very well at all ... damn I wish they had taught better use of grammar and correct sentence structure in my school days ... lol

Never mind. My post at the very least has served as grist for your mill ... Wink

You do make some very relevant points amidst the totality of your dissection and criticism of my post. However it's probably a pity ... but I think many of these points may be subsequently lost within the carnage and dismemberment and also by a certain amount of Christian self-righteousness that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

Judaic monotheism is based on Egyptian, and possibly Babylonian, sources. Christianity, or "Paulinism", is based on Roman pagan sources - the deification of a human (the son of God) is a pagan application of monotheism - very Roman, and very pagan. All the Christian festivals are based on paganism - Spring equinox (Easter), Winter Solstice (Christmas). Christianity even developed its own fertility goddess in the Virgin Mary.

All religions have pagan sources, or at some point in their history, pagan audiences. Christianity in Africa and Latin America is superimposed onto animism, just like Islam in Indonesia and parts of Central Asia.

Pete’s central charge against Islam - his pagan black stone argument - is equally applicable to Christianity. The deification of Christ is the charge of paganism by Muslims against Christianity. Muslims see Jesus as a prophet.

Ultimately, none of this matters. In my opinion, reigion should be a spiritual point of focus, a set of personal spiritual practices. Any more than that, and religion becomes a self-justifying crusade against other religions. For Pete and Yadda, this crusade is a central part of their religious belief system. Both believe the propagation of "truth", and the admonishment of "wickedness" is what their religion is all about.

Forget becoming more Christ-like. For Pete and Yadda, their religion is about exposing the "lies" of others. Both believe they’re saved, and merely have to battle out the rest of their lives until they get to heaven. Who cares about the direction people pray in? The belief that you’re right and everybody else is wrong is far more dangerous than any object of prayer.

And this is, of course, exactly Pete and Yadda’s charge against the dastardly Muselman.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:45am by Karnal »

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #70 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:19am

Quote:

The methodologies of liberal or progressive Islam rest on the interpretation and re-interpretation of traditional Islamic scripture (the Qu'ran) and other texts (such as the Hadith), a process called ijtihad (see below).[4] This can vary from the slight to the most liberal, where only the meaning of the Qur'an is considered to be a revelation while its expression in words is the work of the prophet Muhammad at his particular time and context. As a consequence, verses from the Qur'an may then be interpreted allegorically or even set aside.

Sounds just like Gandalf, yet he insists it is mainstream Islam.

Quote:

The reform movement uses monotheism (tawhid) "as an organizing principle for human society and the basis of religious knowledge, history, metaphysics, aesthetics, and ethics, as well as social, economic and world order."

Totally meaningless, with the exception of the basis for religious knowledge.

Quote:

0k4now please note that I was responding to your false premise. You indicated that Islam has roots and "much of their law based in scripture" in the Old Testament.

I don't think he meant old testament scripture, but a broader meaning of the word scripture.

Quote:

Ultimately, none of this matters. In my opinion, reigion should be a spiritual point of focus

Should be, or is? You have spent a lot of time lately telling people that this is what Islam is. Are you defending Islam by proclaiming it to be what you think it should be, regardless of what it actually is?

Quote:

For Pete and Yadda, this crusade is a central part of their religious belief system. Both believe the propagation of "truth", and the admonishment of "wickedness" is what their religion is all about.

Is this supposed to be sinister?

Quote:

The belief that you’re right and everybody else is wrong is far more dangerous than any object of prayer.

No Karnal. The belief that your religion permits you to execute people for being wrong is dangerous. Rejecting belief in yourself is just a convoluted version of spineless apologetics.

Quote:

And this is, of course, exactly Pete and Yadda’s charge against the dastardly Muselman.

Crap. No-one criticises Muslims for believing themselves to be right. We criticise them for what they actually believe - for their particular views.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #71 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:37am

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:19am:

Crap. No-one criticises Muslims for believing themselves to be right. We criticise them for what they actually believe - for their particular views.

In the case of this argument, that is is linked to Paganism. Which Christianity also is. Why is that argument "crap"?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #72 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:06am

"We?" When did you join the Karmic Khristian religion/army, FD? Is this a recent development, brother?

The only "we" worth bothering with is all of us. No Muslims are here on this board railing against Karmic Khristians like you, Y and Pete. No Muslims are shooting at you, marrying your daughters or stealing your library books. "We" are in this place together. If any Muslim propagated the bigoted, ignorant hate campaign you, Y and Pete sell, I’d be directing my words towards them.

G, a gen-u-wine Muslim, comes across as more reasonable and rational than all of you. You shoot yourself in the foot, time and time again. Your distortions make your case worse. My own replies are totally unnecessary - your own words do you in.

Which is such a pity, because from what I can tell, you’re intelligent, well educated and savvy about a lot of things, politics included.

But alas, you’ve allowed yourself to fall pray to that most pointless distraction of all time - the religious pogrom. In some ways, you remind me of those intellectuals in the Third Reich who were seduced by the more harmless aspects of Nazism and ended up as full-blown Jew hunters.

For me, "we" means everyone, not ethnic, religious or tribal loyalties. If anyone threatens our liberty, equality and fraternity, they deserve to be exposed.

Here on this board, FD, that’s not the Muselman.

That’s you.

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #73 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:16am

Stratos wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:37am:

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:19am:

Crap. No-one criticises Muslims for believing themselves to be right. We criticise them for what they actually believe - for their particular views.

In the case of this argument, that is is linked to Paganism. Which Christianity also is. Why is that argument "crap"?

Pete’s argument is theological. He believes Muslims are inherently evil, based on their veneration of the Qabbah.

Mind you, Pete believes everyone who doesn’t follow his own brand of Christianity is suspect. Pete doesn’t name them (or want to kill them), but he has his own Kuffars.

I’m not sure FD really understands what he’s agreeing with.

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freediver

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #74 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm

Quote:

In the case of this argument, that is is linked to Paganism. Which Christianity also is. Why is that argument "crap"?

You could have at least checked for yourself what Karnal was on about:

Quote:

Forget becoming more Christ-like. For Pete and Yadda, their religion is about exposing the "lies" of others. Both believe they’re saved, and merely have to battle out the rest of their lives until they get to heaven. Who cares about the direction people pray in? The belief that you’re right and everybody else is wrong is far more dangerous than any object of prayer.

And this is, of course, exactly Pete and Yadda’s charge against the dastardly Muselman.

Worshipping the clit rock is not a lie.

Quote:

The only "we" worth bothering with is all of us. No Muslims are here on this board railing against Karmic Khristians like you, Y and Pete.

Not even TC?

Quote:

No Muslims are shooting at you, marrying your daughters or stealing your library books.

They are trying to take something far more valuable.

Quote:

If any Muslim propagated the bigoted, ignorant hate campaign you, Y and Pete sell, I’d be directing my words towards them.

No you wouldn't. You have had plenty of opportunity. I don't think you criticised Abu for example until after he left, and even then it was reluctant.

Quote:

G, a gen-u-wine Muslim, comes across as more reasonable and rational than all of you.

Do you agree with him about discarding freedom of speech to placate those who would use violence to destryoy freedom of speech? Or is this really about what he eats for breakfast?

Quote:

My own replies are totally unnecessary - your own words do you in.

Perhaps you should seek your own advice more. It would be great if you actually had something to say.

Quote:

But alas, you’ve allowed yourself to fall pray to that most pointless distraction of all time - the religious pogrom.

Tell me Karnal, which single movement keeps more around the world people living without democracy and freedom? Answer this, then tell me why there is no point to this debate.

Quote:

In some ways, you remind me of those intellectuals in the Third Reich who were seduced by the more harmless aspects of Nazism and ended up as full-blown Jew hunters.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. You see a religion being criticised, and equate that with anti-semitism. You equate my views with Nazism, even when I make it perfectly clear that I am defending everyone's freedom - including the freedom of Muslims to practice their own religion. You can only see religious people as the victims, not as the perpetrators. You reject the clear parallels between Islam and Nazism, not because they are not there, but because they don't fit in with your poo jokes. You have been seduced by the lie that Islam is merely a religion. You have stated this clearly yourself, ruling out Islam as a political movement, despite Muhammed himself founding one of the most successful and brutal militant empires in world history - an empire whose collapse to this day influences global geo-politics. You have been duped.

Quote:

For me, "we" means everyone, not ethnic, religious or tribal loyalties. If anyone threatens our liberty, equality and fraternity, they deserve to be exposed.

Yet you do all you can to cover it up, to the extent of pretending that Islam does not exist.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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