Australian Politics Forum - It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics

Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics Reply #75 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:06pm freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm: Worshipping the clit rock is not a lie. Yes it is, as it is NOT worshipped.
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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #76 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:06pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:31am:

All religions have pagan sources, or at some point in their history, pagan audiences. Christianity in Africa and Latin America is superimposed onto animism, just like Islam in Indonesia and parts of Central Asia.

Yes, and there is also the interesting subject of psychedelics and how their use relates to the very beginnings/origins of religion.
Quote:

When we explore the early history of religion and examine the various holy scriptures of different faiths, then we find mentioned mysterious substances with divine connotations, which were either eaten or drunk ...
So at the dawn of civilization, our primitive ancestors discovered a door into the divine, that seems almost purposefully set up by the Cosmic Intelligence, in order that we may enter it. That is certain plants and fungi acted as gateways to the transcendent. The visions and mystical insights obtained through using these substances certainly found their way into the primitive systems of religious thinking that would later evolve to become the great faith traditions of the World.

www.iawwai.com/Psychedelia.htm

Karnal wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:31am:

Ultimately, none of this matters. In my opinion, reigion should be a spiritual point of focus, a set of personal spiritual practices. Any more than that, and religion becomes a self-justifying crusade against other religions. For Pete and Yadda, this crusade is a central part of their religious belief system. Both believe the propagation of "truth", and the admonishment of "wickedness" is what their religion is all about.

I would agree that true religion should be more a personal relationship with the Divine. With regard to this, Christianity today and worldwide is relatively tame in it's various social crusades - Islam on the other hand has yet to truly have it's teeth pulled!

Karnal wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:31am:

Forget becoming more Christ-like. For Pete and Yadda, their religion is about exposing the "lies" of others. Both believe they’re saved, and merely have to battle out the rest of their lives until they get to heaven.

Yeah, the whole (very convenient) vicarious salvation thing!

Karnal wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:31am:

Who cares about the direction people pray in? The belief that you’re right and everybody else is wrong is far more dangerous than any object of prayer.

I don't like the way the Christian lobby in many countries forces it's views on the general populace, regarding abortion for instance.
In respect to Islam - (in my opinion) it's currently more of a worry for us all with it's far reaching doctrinal suppression of many various individual rights.

When approaching the practice of Islam (even in this secular country of Australia) I think there is a necessary balance to be found between encouraging reformists and the criticism of the still widely held and (at many times) potentially very oppressive (traditional) beliefs.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 2:02pm by 0ktema »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48933 At my desk.	Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics Reply #77 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:14pm Stratos wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:06pm: freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm: Worshipping the clit rock is not a lie. Yes it is, as it is NOT worshipped. Good job at completely missing the point Stratos.
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Stratos

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #78 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:22pm

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:14pm:

Stratos wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

Worshipping the clit rock is not a lie.

Yes it is, as it is NOT worshipped.

Good job at completely missing the point Stratos.

My point was you are wrong. Did I miss that point?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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True Colours

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #79 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 2:32pm

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

Tell me Karnal, which single movement keeps more around the world people living without democracy and freedom? Answer this, then tell me why there is no point to this debate.

Probably the US government with its support of dictatorships.

The recent anti-democracy coup in Egypt was funded by the CIA:

Exclusive: US bankrolled anti-Morsi activists

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/07/2013710113522489801.html

The US funded the Mubarak dictatorship of Mubarak to the tune $1billion per year. In the 80's we saw the US funding the dictatorships in Iran and Iraq, the US also funded the warlords who would destroy Afghanistan. The dictatorship in Jordan gets $US500million per year. Yasser Arafat received funding from the US.

More recently, the US supported Gaddafi of all people.

Files Show American Aid For Gaddafi

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/31/al-jazeera-americans-gaddafi_n_943876.html

The US reinstalled the dictatorship in Kuwait after forcing out Iraqi forces in 1991.

The US also threw its weight behind dictatorships in Tunisia, Morocco, Yemen, Saudi, UAE, Algeria, and several central Asian countries.

The US supported the overthrow of the democratically-elected government in Ukraine.

We even have our experience of CIA-asset John Kerr overthrowing the democratically-elected Whitlam Government in 1975.

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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #80 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 3:21pm

-True Colours wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 2:32pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

Tell me Karnal, which single movement keeps more around the world people living without democracy and freedom? Answer this, then tell me why there is no point to this debate.

Probably the US government with its support of dictatorships.

The recent anti-democracy coup in Egypt was funded by the CIA:

Exclusive: US bankrolled anti-Morsi activists

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/07/2013710113522489801.html

The US funded the Mubarak dictatorship of Mubarak to the tune $1billion per year. In the 80's we saw the US funding the dictatorships in Iran and Iraq, the US also funded the warlords who would destroy Afghanistan. The dictatorship in Jordan gets $US500million per year. Yasser Arafat received funding from the US.

More recently, the US supported Gaddafi of all people.

Files Show American Aid For Gaddafi

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/31/al-jazeera-americans-gaddafi_n_943876.html

The US reinstalled the dictatorship in Kuwait after forcing out Iraqi forces in 1991.

The US also threw its weight behind dictatorships in Tunisia, Morocco, Yemen, Saudi, UAE, Algeria, and several central Asian countries.

The US supported the overthrow of the democratically-elected government in Ukraine.

We even have our experience of CIA-asset John Kerr overthrowing the democratically-elected Whitlam Government in 1975.

Yes, the USA has a long history of interference (to one degree or another) in other countries affairs.

*

But beyond this relatively well know US activity ... I'm really interested in your thoughts and position regarding the topic of this thread. That being Islamic reform! I'm also interested in your view/opinion of Quranism!

Would you care to share your take on this?

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 3:27pm by 0ktema »

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Karnal

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #81 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 5:53pm

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

Quote:

In the case of this argument, that is is linked to Paganism. Which Christianity also is. Why is that argument "crap"?

You could have at least checked for yourself what Karnal was on about:

Quote:

Forget becoming more Christ-like. For Pete and Yadda, their religion is about exposing the "lies" of others. Both believe they’re saved, and merely have to battle out the rest of their lives until they get to heaven. Who cares about the direction people pray in? The belief that you’re right and everybody else is wrong is far more dangerous than any object of prayer.

And this is, of course, exactly Pete and Yadda’s charge against the dastardly Muselman.

Worshipping the clit rock is not a lie.

Quote:

The only "we" worth bothering with is all of us. No Muslims are here on this board railing against Karmic Khristians like you, Y and Pete.

Not even TC?

Quote:

No Muslims are shooting at you, marrying your daughters or stealing your library books.

They are trying to take something far more valuable.

Quote:

If any Muslim propagated the bigoted, ignorant hate campaign you, Y and Pete sell, I’d be directing my words towards them.

No you wouldn't. You have had plenty of opportunity. I don't think you criticised Abu for example until after he left, and even then it was reluctant.

Quote:

G, a gen-u-wine Muslim, comes across as more reasonable and rational than all of you.

Do you agree with him about discarding freedom of speech to placate those who would use violence to destryoy freedom of speech? Or is this really about what he eats for breakfast?

Quote:

My own replies are totally unnecessary - your own words do you in.

Perhaps you should seek your own advice more. It would be great if you actually had something to say.

Quote:

But alas, you’ve allowed yourself to fall pray to that most pointless distraction of all time - the religious pogrom.

Tell me Karnal, which single movement keeps more around the world people living without democracy and freedom? Answer this, then tell me why there is no point to this debate.

Quote:

In some ways, you remind me of those intellectuals in the Third Reich who were seduced by the more harmless aspects of Nazism and ended up as full-blown Jew hunters.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. You see a religion being criticised, and equate that with anti-semitism. You equate my views with Nazism, even when I make it perfectly clear that I am defending everyone's freedom - including the freedom of Muslims to practice their own religion. You can only see religious people as the victims, not as the perpetrators. You reject the clear parallels between Islam and Nazism, not because they are not there, but because they don't fit in with your poo jokes. You have been seduced by the lie that Islam is merely a religion. You have stated this clearly yourself, ruling out Islam as a political movement, despite Muhammed himself founding one of the most successful and brutal militant empires in world history - an empire whose collapse to this day influences global geo-politics. You have been duped.

Quote:

For me, "we" means everyone, not ethnic, religious or tribal loyalties. If anyone threatens our liberty, equality and fraternity, they deserve to be exposed.

Yet you do all you can to cover it up, to the extent of pretending that Islam does not exist.

Cover what up? Most of what you post about Muslims - the criminality, the terrorist risks, the child marriages, the so-called lies and deceit - turns out to be krap.

Everything else you post is ancient history, and you haven’t even read up on that.

I’d actually like to see you post a sensible, reasonable post about Islam. Why don’t you?

Do that, FD, and I’ll laud you for it. I’ll sing your name throughout the board.This isn’t a war - I want to see you post smart, informed posts. I’m one of the good guys. I’m on your side.

I just don’t think you should use lies and propaganda to present your case. After all, if your case is so strong, you shouldn’t need to.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #82 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:42pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 9:28pm:

I was pointing out to you that you started off with a false premise. I'll address the rest of your post next.

I will admit my first sentence in particular wasn't structured very well at all ... damn I wish they had taught better use of grammar and correct sentence structure in my school days ... lol

Never mind. My post at the very least has served as grist for your mill ... Wink

You do make some very relevant points amidst the totality of your dissection and criticism of my post. However it's probably a pity ... but I think many of these points may be somewhat subsequently lost within the carnage and dismemberment and also by a certain amount of Christian self-righteousness .....

Self-righteousness, or self-confidence that comes through walking in truth?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

I'm just another lowly sinner sis, but one with a calling. Sometimes I do get concerned that my unvarnished matter of fact style of presentation of matters of fact and evidence, may give some the impression that you got. Perhaps I've been a bit hardened after spending a half dozen years or so, full-time in these trenches, of opposition to THE false prophet Muhammad.

However if you look at my posting history you will find that Muhammad's followers in here are unable to substantively respond to my threads and posts, and that's because they are specifically not walking in truth. I am desperate for them as I believe the end of the opportunity for repentance is truly at hand. When I posted on the history of Mecca for example they were left flat-footed - because there isn't any historical or archaeological evidence of Mecca prior to the 4th century AD, that can support the geographical impossibility of pre-5th century Islamic so-called "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in 7th - 10th centuries AD.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

When I posted on the subject of antichrist, not a soul responded. Yet according to scripture there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today just in Islam. That count doesn't even include atheists and other antichrists.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854

You might agree, that the only thing that matters is truth, since the Lord and Savior that I serve IS truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am
the way, the truth
, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Nor is it a surprise that the pop-"church" has difficulty recognizing tradition as well, since the direction of, and apostasy of, the institutional "church" was prophesied.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

..... that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

They are lengthy because I am not a fan of one-line zingers, but rather presentation of evidence and reasoned brick by brick empirical arguments. I consider most every thread or post, an opportunity to present evidence that may cause that first spark of cognitive dissonance in perhaps even just one, of Muhammad's followers. Not so much forum members who, no matter how much evidence or how many matters of fact are presented will likely continue to simply ignore them, but more for those Muslim lurkers to the forum that are genuinely seeking the truth.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:03pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #83 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:09pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 5:53pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

Yet you do all you can to cover it up, to the extent of pretending that Islam does not exist.

Cover what up? Most of what you post about Muslims - the criminality, the terrorist risks, the child marriages, the so-called lies and deceit - turns out to be krap.

Everything else you post is ancient history, and you haven’t even read up on that.

I’d actually like to see you post a sensible, reasonable post about Islam. Why don’t you?

Do that, FD, and I’ll laud you for it. I’ll sing your name throughout the board.

All doing as you suggest results in, is being ignored.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388584924
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

Karnal wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 5:53pm:

This isn’t a war - I want to see you post smart, informed posts. I’m one of the good guys. I’m on your side.

I just don’t think you should use lies and propaganda to present your case. After all, if your case is so strong, you shouldn’t need to.

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #84 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:42pm:

Self-righteousness, or self-confidence that comes through walking in truth?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

I'm just another lowly sinner sis, but one with a calling. Sometimes I do get concerned that my unvarnished matter of fact style of presentation of matters of fact and evidence, may give some the impression that you got. Perhaps I've been a bit hardened after spending a half dozen years or so, full-time in these trenches, of opposition to THE false prophet Muhammad.

However if you look at my posting history you will find that Muhammad's followers in here are unable to substantively respond to my threads and posts, and that's because they are specifically not walking in truth. I am desperate for them as I believe the end of the opportunity for repentance is truly at hand. When I posted on the history of Mecca for example they were left flat-footed - because there isn't any historical or archaeological evidence of Mecca prior to the 4th century AD, that can support the geographical impossibility of pre-5th century Islamic so-called "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in 7th - 10th centuries AD.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

When I posted on the subject of antichrist, not a soul responded. Yet according to scripture there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today just in Islam. That count doesn't even include atheists and other antichrists.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854

You might agree, that the only thing that matters is truth, since the Lord and Savior that I serve IS truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am
the way, the truth
, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Nor is it a surprise that the pop-"church" has difficulty recognizing tradition as well, since the direction of, and apostasy of, the institutional "church" was prophesied.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

..... that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

They are lengthy because I am not a fan of one-line zingers, but rather presentation of evidence and reasoned brick by brick empirical arguments. I consider most every thread or post, an opportunity to present evidence that may cause that first spark of cognitive dissonance in perhaps even just one, of Muhammad's followers. Not so much forum members who, no matter how much evidence or how many matters of fact are presented will likely continue to simply ignore them, but more for those Muslim lurkers to the forum that are genuinely seeking the truth.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

I appreciate your response Pete, and indeed you do seem very dedicated I'll grant you that.
I'll also grant that you appear to have quite a strong working knowledge of scripture and also Islamic doctrine - well beyond my own.

I hope you don't take what I say next in the wrong light. As it is meant to be merely constructive criticism.
But I feel I must say that your posts somehow come across to me as being perhaps a bit too mechanically constructed and can they be a little off putting because of this (especially for the novice). Though you say you've been in the trenches for around 6 years so it is easily understandable that you have developed a certain method and style of approach.

.................................

I have my own views on the esoteric meaning behind John 14:6 and perhaps will share them with you in a more appropriate thread sometime.

Still I will say here - as far as Christianity goes I would lean more towards John Shelby Spong's views on Spirituality than that of any main stream church or basic/exoteric doctrine.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:01pm by 0ktema »

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #85 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:07pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 8:42pm:

Self-righteousness, or self-confidence that comes through walking in truth?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

I'm just another lowly sinner sis, but one with a calling. Sometimes I do get concerned that my unvarnished matter of fact style of presentation of matters of fact and evidence, may give some the impression that you got. Perhaps I've been a bit hardened after spending a half dozen years or so, full-time in these trenches, of opposition to THE false prophet Muhammad.

However if you look at my posting history you will find that Muhammad's followers in here are unable to substantively respond to my threads and posts, and that's because they are specifically not walking in truth. I am desperate for them as I believe the end of the opportunity for repentance is truly at hand. When I posted on the history of Mecca for example they were left flat-footed - because there isn't any historical or archaeological evidence of Mecca prior to the 4th century AD, that can support the geographical impossibility of pre-5th century Islamic so-called "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in 7th - 10th centuries AD.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

When I posted on the subject of antichrist, not a soul responded. Yet according to scripture there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today just in Islam. That count doesn't even include atheists and other antichrists.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854

You might agree, that the only thing that matters is truth, since the Lord and Savior that I serve IS truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am
the way, the truth
, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Nor is it a surprise that the pop-"church" has difficulty recognizing tradition as well, since the direction of, and apostasy of, the institutional "church" was prophesied.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

..... that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

They are lengthy because I am not a fan of one-line zingers, but rather presentation of evidence and reasoned brick by brick empirical arguments. I consider most every thread or post, an opportunity to present evidence that may cause that first spark of cognitive dissonance in perhaps even just one, of Muhammad's followers. Not so much forum members who, no matter how much evidence or how many matters of fact are presented will likely continue to simply ignore them, but more for those Muslim lurkers to the forum that are genuinely seeking the truth.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

I appreciate your response Pete, and indeed you do seem very dedicated I'll grant you that.
I'll also grant that you appear to have quite a strong working knowledge of scripture and also Islamic doctrine - well beyond my own.

I hope you don't take what I say next in the wrong light. As it is meant to be merely constructive criticism.
But I feel I must say that your posts somehow come across to me as being perhaps a bit too mechanically constructed .......

Not exactly sure what you mean, but I have a hunch that it may be the result of my copy and pasting from several websites that I maintain, and continue to expand through learning experiences like chatting in this forum.

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

..... and can they be a little off putting because of this (especially for the novice). Though you say you've been in the trenches for around 6 years so it is easily understandable that you have developed a certain method and style of approach.

.................................

I have my own views on the esoteric meaning behind John 14:6 and perhaps will share them with you in a more appropriate thread sometime.

Still I will say here - as far as Christianity goes I would lean more towards John Shelby Spong's views on Spirituality.......

Opposite ends, thanks for the warning!

After some years, I overcame the counter-scriptural apostate Episcopal Church, though it didn't take much in my case. My wife was a bit slower in the process. Overcoming men like Spong and Robinson who work to conform the "church" to the world, rather than seeking to conform the world to the Gospel of Jesus Christ through regeneration.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=3&t=KJV#s=1000003

The anti-Zionism that results from theology driven punitive supersessionism, of such institutions, is a modern day tragedy in the institutional "church".
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

...... than that of any main stream church or basic doctrine.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:27pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #86 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:32pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:07pm:

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

..... that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

They are lengthy because I am not a fan of one-line zingers, but rather presentation of evidence and reasoned brick by brick empirical arguments. I consider most every thread or post, an opportunity to present evidence that may cause that first spark of cognitive dissonance in perhaps even just one, of Muhammad's followers. Not so much forum members who, no matter how much evidence or how many matters of fact are presented will likely continue to simply ignore them, but more for those Muslim lurkers to the forum that are genuinely seeking the truth.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

I appreciate your response Pete, and indeed you do seem very dedicated I'll grant you that.
I'll also grant that you appear to have quite a strong working knowledge of scripture and also Islamic doctrine - well beyond my own.

I hope you don't take what I say next in the wrong light. As it is meant to be merely constructive criticism.
But I feel I must say that your posts somehow come across to me as being perhaps a bit too mechanically constructed .......

Not exactly sure what you mean, but I have a hunch that it may be the result of my copy and pasting from several websites that I maintain, and continue to expand through learning experiences like chatting in this forum.

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

..... and can they be a little off putting because of this (especially for the novice). Though you say you've been in the trenches for around 6 years so it is easily understandable that you have developed a certain method and style of approach.

.................................

I have my own views on the esoteric meaning behind John 14:6 and perhaps will share them with you in a more appropriate thread sometime.

Still I will say here - as far as Christianity goes I would lean more towards John Shelby Spong's views on Spirituality.......

Thanks for the warning. I overcame the counter-scriptural apostate Episcopal Church, through it didn't take much. My wife was slower in the process. Overcoming men like Spong and Robinson who work to conform the "church" to the world, rather than seeking to conform the world to the Gospel of Jesus Christ through regeneration.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=3&t=KJV#s=1000003

One huge opportunity for discernment in the church" today is the anti-Zionism, that results from the punitive supersessionism, of such institutions.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

...... than that of any main stream church or basic doctrine.

Your hunch (highlighted above) is probably right.

From the rest of your post ... I take it you don't credit Jesus teachings with any deeper esoteric meanings and therefore tend merely to the literal/exoteric version of scripture. Would this be a correct assumption?

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"We Are Consciousness Itself"

- Adi Da Samraj

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Pete Waldo

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #87 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:52pm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:32pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:07pm:

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 6:12am:

..... that sneaks through in your lengthy replies.

They are lengthy because I am not a fan of one-line zingers, but rather presentation of evidence and reasoned brick by brick empirical arguments. I consider most every thread or post, an opportunity to present evidence that may cause that first spark of cognitive dissonance in perhaps even just one, of Muhammad's followers. Not so much forum members who, no matter how much evidence or how many matters of fact are presented will likely continue to simply ignore them, but more for those Muslim lurkers to the forum that are genuinely seeking the truth.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

I appreciate your response Pete, and indeed you do seem very dedicated I'll grant you that.
I'll also grant that you appear to have quite a strong working knowledge of scripture and also Islamic doctrine - well beyond my own.

I hope you don't take what I say next in the wrong light. As it is meant to be merely constructive criticism.
But I feel I must say that your posts somehow come across to me as being perhaps a bit too mechanically constructed .......

Not exactly sure what you mean, but I have a hunch that it may be the result of my copy and pasting from several websites that I maintain, and continue to expand through learning experiences like chatting in this forum.

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

..... and can they be a little off putting because of this (especially for the novice). Though you say you've been in the trenches for around 6 years so it is easily understandable that you have developed a certain method and style of approach.

.................................

I have my own views on the esoteric meaning behind John 14:6 and perhaps will share them with you in a more appropriate thread sometime.

Still I will say here - as far as Christianity goes I would lean more towards John Shelby Spong's views on Spirituality.......

Thanks for the warning. I overcame the counter-scriptural apostate Episcopal Church, through it didn't take much. My wife was slower in the process. Overcoming men like Spong and Robinson who work to conform the "church" to the world, rather than seeking to conform the world to the Gospel of Jesus Christ through regeneration.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=3&t=KJV#s=1000003

One huge opportunity for discernment in the church" today is the anti-Zionism, that results from the punitive supersessionism, of such institutions.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

...... than that of any main stream church or basic doctrine.

Your hunch (highlighted above) is probably right.

From the rest of your post ... I take it you don't credit Jesus teachings with any deeper esoteric meanings and therefore tend merely to the literal/exoteric version of scripture. Would this be a correct assumption?

Since scripture includes the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy, for us to puzzle over until fulfilled and really see only after that fulfillment, the answer would have to be no.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end

Indeed my ministry to the remnant of the ecclesia specifically regards "deeper meanings", but as arrived at while letting scripture define the terms. As in the example of the "beast" of Revelation 13.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

And I am hostile to all notions or false doctrine that is extra-scriptural and even contrary to scripture. As in the example of Roman Church Marianism (and so much more) for example, as well as pop-church ordinance-contrary, ordination of women and homosexuals and the like.

Definition of esoteric (adj)
Bing Dictionary
es·o·ter·ic [ èssə térrik ]

1. restricted to initiates: intended for or understood by only an initiated few
2. abstruse: difficult to understand
3. secret: secret or highly confidential

As for item 1 regarding core Christian doctrine, though the Roman Church clergy and others who have usurped the headship of Jesus Christ in the ecclesia would like to fool folks into believing so, that would be a false notion.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In regard to 2. and 3. I would agree that much of scripture is more difficult than simple, and thus requires due diligence and hermeneutic discipline.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm

Though nobody has all the answers, nor a franchise on truth.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:06pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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0ktema

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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #88 - Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:50pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Though nobody has all the answers, nor a franchise on truth.

Without much doubt ... you would seem to have set up a fairly secure world for yourself - backed up by all your chosen scripture and literal interpretation there of.

Personally I started to overcome Christian exclusivity at the ripe old age of 9.

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:59pm by 0ktema »

"We Are Consciousness Itself"

- Adi Da Samraj

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Yadda

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Posts: 21726
A cat with a view

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #89 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 2:00am

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Since scripture includes the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy, for us to puzzle over until fulfilled and really see only after that fulfillment, the answer would have to be no.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end

Indeed my ministry to the remnant of the ecclesia specifically regards "deeper meanings", but as arrived at while letting scripture define the terms. As in the example of the "beast" of Revelation 13.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

And I am hostile to all notions or false doctrine that is extra-scriptural and even contrary to scripture. As in the example of Roman Church Marianism (and so much more) for example, as well as pop-church ordinance-contrary, ordination of women and homosexuals and the like.

Definition of esoteric (adj)
Bing Dictionary
es·o·ter·ic [ èssə térrik ]

1. restricted to initiates: intended for or understood by only an initiated few
2. abstruse: difficult to understand
3. secret: secret or highly confidential

As for item 1 regarding core Christian doctrine, though the Roman Church clergy and others who have usurped the headship of Jesus Christ in the ecclesia would like to fool folks into believing so, that would be a false notion.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In regard to 2. and 3. I would agree that much of scripture is more difficult than simple, and thus requires due diligence and hermeneutic discipline.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm

Though nobody has all the answers, nor a franchise on truth.

Pete,

The 'walk' of those [of us!] who are seeking and waiting for God, it is a harsh 'wilderness' journey.

And it is a challenging journey, in the wilderness of this world.

And i for one, have no doubt that you are firmly on that path and journey back to God, our creator.

"Like as a woman with child...."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231830268/0#0
Quote:

Dictionary,
scapegoat = =
1 a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings or mistakes of others.
2 (in the Bible) a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).

".....On the day of atonement, two goats without blemish were taken by the priest, upon which lots were cast, one for the Lord, and the other for the scapegoat. The one upon which the Lord's lot fell, was then slain, and his blood carried into the sanctuary to make an atonement for the children of Israel. After which the sins of the people were confessed upon the head of the other, or scapegoat. And the scapegoat was set free, into the wilderness."

In the levitical atonement sacrifice, an innocent [substitute] was sacrificed, as atonement for the sins of the people.

Dictionary,
atonement = =
1 reparation for a wrong or injury.
2 (the Atonement) Christian Theology the reconciliation of God and mankind through the death of Jesus Christ.

In exchange for their sacrifice offering [symbolising their acceptance of their guilt], the guilty [of the children of Israel] were 'set free', but were [still, symbolically] separated from their God.

In the context of this Biblical analogy,
....Jesus Christ is our sacrifice for sin,
....and the 'chosen people', Israel were/are the 'scapegoat'.
....the 'wilderness', is symbolically, this world.

The guilty were set free, to wander in the world, until they found [their] redemption.
....or until they found their 'promised land'?

The 'scapegoat' type of Israel, was supposed to be, was intended, as a spiritual lesson [a 'witness'] to us 'heathens'/gentiles [and to Israel],
.....to do good, and no more evil!

The fate, of the children of Israel was predicted...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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