Australian Politics Forum - It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21726
A cat with a view

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #90 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 2:20am

0ktema wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 11:50pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 5^th, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Though nobody has all the answers, nor a franchise on truth.

Without much doubt ... you would seem to have set up a fairly secure world for yourself - backed up by all your chosen scripture and literal interpretation there of.

0k4now,

Pete also said.....

Quote:

.....scripture includes the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy, for us to puzzle over until fulfilled and really see only after that fulfillment, the answer would have to be no.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end

Indeed my ministry to the remnant of the ecclesia specifically regards "deeper meanings",........

Definition of esoteric (adj)
Bing Dictionary
es·o·ter·ic [ èssə térrik ]

1. restricted to initiates: intended for or understood by only an initiated few
2. abstruse: difficult to understand
3. secret: secret or highly confidential

Isaiah 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Quote:

Personally I started to overcome Christian exclusivity at the ripe old age of 9.

0k4now,

I don't like, 'the church'. [...any of them]

'the church' [as was the ancient nation of Israel!] was intended to be a guardian of purity, among men.

Today, she ['the church'] is a whore, imo.

+++

A short meditation - on the spirit of God, and the dwelling place of God's spirit;

Exodus 25:8
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

Exodus 29:45
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.

Exodus 29:46
And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 11:44
For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy:....

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

Numbers 5:3
Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

Numbers 16:22
.....O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh,....

Numbers 35:34
Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

1 Kings 6:13
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

and it goes on, and on, and on.....

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48933
At my desk.

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #91 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 12:24pm

Quote:

Cover what up? Most of what you post about Muslims - the criminality, the terrorist risks, the child marriages, the so-called lies and deceit - turns out to be krap.

I think you'll find that it was Gandalf who started the whole child marriage epidemic debate. You spent 60 pages demanding I prove something that I never claimed. Gandalf is also the one pushing the "crime prone" Muslims of western Sydney narrative. I hope you are not suggesting that the risk of Islamic terrorism is crap.

Quote:

Everything else you post is ancient history, and you haven’t even read up on that.

Everything else I post is a religion and a political ideology, and I consider it little more than spineless apologetics for you to try to pass it off differently. Every week you come up with a different version of Islam does not exist, parrot it for a while, then quietly drop it then move onto the next version, all the while furiously maintaining the debate about whether we ought to have the debate, but never actually participating in it.

Quote:

I’d actually like to see you post a sensible, reasonable post about Islam. Why don’t you?

You mean one that you agree with? How about a post about what Gandalf had for breakfast?

Quote:

I just don’t think you should use lies and propaganda to present your case.

Would you mind pointing out one of these lies that does not come from Gandalf?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 95627
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #92 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 2:46pm

Oh, FD, you really are a one. Are you asking me to go through the threads here and pull out your words on the prevelence of Muslim child marriage, in Australia, telling everyone how it was a significant Muslim problem because Muhammed was a paedophile?

Would you like me to do the same with your rants on Muslim.criminality, pulling all sorts of statistics out of your hat?

Please don’t make me do that.

You have a nice lie down and enjoy the rest of your day. I would never do the above because you’d tie yourself in knots trying to defend yourself. You’d go on for months. And your claims would escalate, reaching grotesque proportions. You’d out-Yadda Yadda, who I must say, you’re strangely starting to resemble.

No, FD, you didn’t start any of those claims. You just led the interrogation.

What G had for breakfast pretty much sums up your arguments, counter-claims and tittle-tattle sub-threads here. You should really do some reading on Islam or stop carrying on.

I think Gandalf had a cup of tea, but I’m not sure. Shall we ask him?

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48933
At my desk.

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #93 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 2:58pm

Quote:

Oh, FD, you really are a one. Are you asking me to go through the threads here and pull out your words on the prevelence of Muslim child marriage, in Australia, telling everyone how it was a significant Muslim problem because Muhammed was a paedophile?

The fact that Muhammed was a pedophile is itself a significant Muslim problem. We have had Muslims on here promoting the Islamic version of child marriage.

Quote:

Would you like me to do the same with your rants on Muslim.criminality, pulling all sorts of statistics out of your hat?

Sure. I think it would be great if you would try to criticise me based on what I actually say. We wouldn't go round in circles so much.

Quote:

Please don’t make me do that.

It is up to you whether you want to build a coherent argument. So far out of the three examples you have presented against me, two were Gandalf, not me, and the other is an undeniable problem.

You are not a details person Karnal. You barely notice them. You have a view of Islam that you cannot even pin down, something to do with not being a political movement, but a "purely" religious one, and all religions are somehow the same. All the little details about the pernicious political and legal aspects that are a core part of Islam simply pass you by. At best you comment how you disapprove then move on to telling people how they shouldn't disapprove. Or you turn it into a poo joke as a substitute for a rational counter-argument.

You have been here a few years now. Still no-one knows where you are coming from or what your views are. For the most part, no-one has even bothered to ask.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 95627
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #94 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:27pm

Don’t ask, don’t tell, FD. I’m.a bit surprised no one has bothered to tell you Islam is a religion. It really is. You know, people actually pray and try to be nice to each other, all that.

We have a little freedom in this country, FD. You might have heard of the right to follow the god of your choice. I know, Iknow, it’s a quaint old fashioned right that precedes the days of total Muslim war, rape and paedophilia we have now.

Can you believe it? Before talkback radio showed us what the score is, we respected other people’s rights to believe what they wanted, as long as it didn’t hurt anyone else.

Not anymore, eh?

No, my view of Islam where Muslims practice charity and hospitality and respect others and make good friends - where was I coming from? How could I have been so deceived?

Thanks for setting me straight, FD.

Just one thing - how did you turn me around?

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48933 At my desk.	Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics Reply #95 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:31pm Do you see me trying to deny anyone their rights? In fact Gandalf accused me of this very recently, but was unable to follow it up. Do you see the irony in projecting such sinister motives onto myself at the same time as accusing me of doing this to Muslims?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 95627
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #96 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 5:18pm

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:31pm:

Do you see me trying to deny anyone their rights?

Oh, but of course. I've seen you scoffing here at people bowing down to pray, the god they pray to, people making dietary choices, people sending money to families overseas (funding terrorism), and people fleeing conflicts overseas (who don't become terrorists themselves). You scream about extremist Muslims, moderate Muslims, reformist Muslims, and Musims who don't even practice Islam (but put Muslim on their census forms). You rant about Muslims living, Muslims dying, and I've never seen you scoff at a Muslim grave, but I believe you would, given the opportunity.

Many of your posts could fit into the category of religious vilification, and I've seen you guffaw at those who dare to mention the protection of these laws.

Whenever it's pointed out that there are laws for underage marriage and rape and terrorism and all the rest, you laugh at the audacity of Muslims being equally subject to the laws of the rest of us. How could that ever work?

Then, while you present your incriminating point-by-point evidence against some dodgy Muslim accountant or child marrier or drug dealer, thousands of non-Muslims are evading your ever-vigilant eye.

This board is about the Muslims!

Still, I've never seen you discuss your final solution for the Muselman problem, FD. You haven't put that one out there yet. The die-hard racists here want an end to Muslim immigration - well, just to be on the safe side, all "non-white" immigration.

The old boy wants the foreign ones carpet-bombed for talking back to Uncle.

Pete and Y want them all to convert to Karmic Khristianity and give up their lives in the coming Apocalypse.

And you want freedom, justice and equal rights for all.

Don't you?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 6^th, 2014 at 5:26pm by Karnal »

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #97 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 6:34pm

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:31pm:

Do you see me trying to deny anyone their rights? In fact Gandalf accused me of this very recently, but was unable to follow it up.

Not exactly, I said you were attacking muslim's rights - a subtle but key difference.

Muslims, like anyone else, have a right to not be vilified. As Karnal said, your criticism goes far beyond merely standing up for freedom of speech and speaking out against muslim atrocities. You stereotype, make baseless accusations against muslims, make up baseless historical facts and pigeon-hole all muslims into the same basket. That is the very hallmark of prejudice leading to vilification. And to top it off, you regularly mock muslims for their practices (tapping their heads 25 times a day, har har har!). Most significantly, you have completely abandoned speaking out against even what you wouldn't deny as being blatant demonisation of muslims that is rampant on this forum. This is not the FD that started this forum - where you would pounce on anything even remotely prejudicial and vilifying against muslims - as any honest and objective contributor should. Now you are an apologist for the most heinous and offensive bigotry, and regularly chip in with your own ignorant trash. This, in case it still needs to be spelled out, is attacking muslim's right to not be demonized with ignorant bigotry.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95627 Gender:	Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics Reply #98 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 6:53pm freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:31pm: Do you see me trying to deny anyone their rights? In fact Gandalf accused me of this very recently, but was unable to follow it up. Listen, don’t mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.
Back to top	IP Logged

Sprintcyclist

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 40735
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #99 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 7:10pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Don’t ask, don’t tell, FD. I’m.a bit surprised no one has bothered to tell you Islam is a religion. It really is. You know, people actually pray and try to be nice to each other, all that.

We have a little freedom in this country, FD. You might have heard of the right to follow the god of your choice. I know, Iknow, it’s a quaint old fashioned right that precedes the days of total Muslim war, rape and paedophilia we have now.

Can you believe it? Before talkback radio showed us what the score is, we respected other people’s rights to believe what they wanted, as long as it didn’t hurt anyone else.

Not anymore, eh?

No, my view of Islam where Muslims practice charity and hospitality and respect others and make good friends - where was I coming from? How could I have been so deceived?

Thanks for setting me straight, FD.

Just one thing - how did you turn me around?

islam is unlike 'any other religion.'
islam goals are totalitarian worldwide complete control.

islam is political, religious, legal and the armed forces rolled into one package.

islam is VERY hard to escape from once they have control.
It is totally against freedom of speech, it is oppressive and regressive.

Islamic countries always feature amongst countries of greatest abuse of human rights.
They also have the least ability to improve.

Back to top

Modern Classic Right Wing

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21726
A cat with a view

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #100 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 7:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 6:34pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:31pm:

Do you see me trying to deny anyone their rights? In fact Gandalf accused me of this very recently, but was unable to follow it up.

Not exactly, I said you were attacking muslim's rights - a subtle but key difference.

Muslims, like anyone else, have a right to not be vilified.

As Karnal said, your criticism goes far beyond merely standing up for freedom of speech and speaking out against muslim atrocities.

You stereotype, make baseless accusations against muslims, make up baseless historical facts and pigeon-hole all muslims into the same basket. That is the very hallmark of prejudice leading to vilification.

And to top it off, you regularly mock muslims for their practices (tapping their heads 25 times a day, har har har!).

Most significantly, you have completely abandoned speaking out against even what you wouldn't deny as being blatant demonisation of muslims that is rampant on this forum.

This is not the FD that started this forum - where you would pounce on anything even remotely prejudicial and vilifying against muslims - as any honest and objective contributor should.

Now you are an apologist for the most heinous and offensive bigotry, and regularly chip in with your own ignorant trash.

This, in case it still needs to be spelled out, is attacking muslim's right to not be demonized with ignorant bigotry.

Poor FD!

Quote:

.....not the FD that started this forum - where you would pounce on anything even remotely prejudicial and vilifying against muslims - as any honest and objective contributor should.

Dictionary;
vilify = = speak or write about in an abusively disparaging manner.

But gandalf,

What about the vilification of non-moslems and demonisation of non-moslems, that is entrenched and promoted within ISLAMIC doctrines and a vilification which is present for all to see, contained within ISLAMIC religious texts ???

FOR EXAMPLE....
Quote:

“Muslims are the vilest of animals…”

“Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims”

“How perverse are Muslims!”

“Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips”

“Fight those Muslims who are near to you”

“Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified”

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm

Hate Speech?
(Not According to CAIR)

Quote:

According to the Quran, non-believers...

Eat like beasts 47:12
Are apes 7:166, 5:60, 2:65
Are swines 5:60
Are asses 74:50
The vilest of animals in Allah's sight 8:55
Losers 2:27, 2:121, 3:85
Have a disease in their hearts 2:10, 5:52, 24:50
Are hard-hearted 39:22, 57:16
Impure of hearts 5:41
Are deaf 2:171, 6:25
Are blind 2:171, 6:25
Are dumb 2:171, 6:35, 11:29
Are niggardly 4:37, 70:21
Works shall be rendered ineffective 2:217, 47:1, 47:8
Are impure 8:37
Are scum 13:17
Are inordinate 5:68, 78:22
Are transgressors 2:26, 9:8, 46:20
Are unjust 29:49
Make mischief 16:88
Are the worst of men 98:6
Are in a state of confusion 50:5
Are the lowest of the low 95:5
Focus only on outward appearance 19:73-74
Are guilty 30:12, 77:46
Sinful liar 45:7
Follow falsehood 47:3
Deeds are like the mirage in a desert 24:39
also...
Allah does not love them 3:32, 22:38
Allah forsakes them 32:14, 45:34
Allah brought down destruction upon them 47:10
Allah has cursed them 2:88, 48:6
Allah despises them 17:18
Allah abases them 22:18

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm

gandalf,

You speak about MOSLEMS being subjected to vilification and abuse !

But i would venture that this abuse of moslems criticism of moslems, is often related to the UN-'holy' conduct of many moslems?

Rapes, murders, intimidation - crimes which are all sanctioned [MADE 'LAWFUL'!!] as Jihad against the enemies of the moslems and Allah.

The demonisation of non-moslems ???

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

In Koran 4.74-76 those who reject 'Faith' are ipso facto, 'rightly' deemed, by ISLAM and by Allah, as being innately evil. Therefore those who reject 'Faith', are described as 'oppressors', and are the rightful targets of moslem enmity, violence, and warfare.
...'those who reject Faith' are described [Koran 4.74-76], as 'oppressors' and as, 'the friends of Satan'.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 95627
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #101 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 7:33pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 7:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Don’t ask, don’t tell, FD. I’m.a bit surprised no one has bothered to tell you Islam is a religion. It really is. You know, people actually pray and try to be nice to each other, all that.

We have a little freedom in this country, FD. You might have heard of the right to follow the god of your choice. I know, Iknow, it’s a quaint old fashioned right that precedes the days of total Muslim war, rape and paedophilia we have now.

Can you believe it? Before talkback radio showed us what the score is, we respected other people’s rights to believe what they wanted, as long as it didn’t hurt anyone else.

Not anymore, eh?

No, my view of Islam where Muslims practice charity and hospitality and respect others and make good friends - where was I coming from? How could I have been so deceived?

Thanks for setting me straight, FD.

Just one thing - how did you turn me around?

islam is unlike 'any other religion.'
islam goals are totalitarian worldwide complete control.

islam is political, religious, legal and the armed forces rolled into one package.

islam is VERY hard to escape from once they have control.
It is totally against freedom of speech, it is oppressive and regressive.

Islamic countries always feature amongst countries of greatest abuse of human rights.
They also have the least ability to improve.

Sprint, this is the longest post I’ve seen you write, and you raise some valid points in it. Islam is definitely against certain freedom of speech, and Islamicist movements like the Taliban, the Wahabi Saudis, and a handful of others funded by the same, are fundamentally oppressive and regressive.

But Islam is not an army and a political movement and gunning for worldwide control. Even the Islamic groups that do want control can’t agree. Islamic (and non-Islamic) groups throughout the world are currently fighting it out for control of their own states.

Which, you would have to agree, is fair enpugh. It’s what we begged Iraqis to do when Saddam was in power.

And alas, most Muslims live in pro-Western, European political systems and are happy to do so. Indonesia is the biggest Muslim nation. India, a predominantly Hindu country, has the second largest Muslim.population. Militant Islamic groups in both these countries are rare - as they are through most of the Muslim world.

If I’m wrong, please show me where and how.

The exceptions to the rule - oil rich Saudi Arabia and bankrupt Pakistan, are both US allies.

But both states are the financial and geographic centre of extremist Islam.

How do we account for that?

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #102 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 8:24pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2014 at 7:25pm:

But gandalf,

What about the vilification of non-moslems and demonisation of non-moslems, that is entrenched and promoted within ISLAMIC doctrines and a vilification which is present for all to see, contained within ISLAMIC religious texts ???

The islamic text I follow doesn't vilify. It preaches tolerance and freedoms. You don't deny the existence of these particular texts - you just argue that they have been abbrogated. But I follow them nonetheless.

Though I do not deny that vilification and demonisation of non-muslims exists in muslim communities and countries. And I also do not deny that in many instances it is institutionalised and justified on doctrinal grounds. You ask me what I think about this - I answer by saying it is unacceptable and must be fought.

But is there any point in me explaining? Since anything I say can simply be dismissed as deliberate deception - in line with the muslim doctrine of deceit called taqqiya right?

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 95627
Gender: male

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #103 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 8:35pm

Yes friends, Google Taqqiya.

I did. It sums up our sinister, limp-wristed spineless apologetic agenda to a tee.

We spineless apologists, you see, want to hold off the Karmic Khristian agenda of spreading the Word tof Jeesus throughout the world, and thus, bringing upon Armageddon.

Pete calls us anti-Christs and spoil sports. I think we’re a pack of complete bastards.

There are no right or wrong answers, friends. Google Taqqiya..

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48933
At my desk.

Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #104 - Apr 6^th, 2014 at 9:04pm

Quote:

Sprint, this is the longest post I’ve seen you write, and you raise some valid points in it. Islam is definitely against certain freedom of speech, and Islamicist movements like the Taliban, the Wahabi Saudis, and a handful of others funded by the same, are fundamentally oppressive and regressive.

According to Abu, it is all four mainstream schools of Sunni jurisprudence. Also Shitism, but Abu opposed that.

Quote:

But Islam is not an army and a political movement and gunning for worldwide control.

It was for most of it's history, and that is exactly how Muhammed intended it. The only reason this is no longer the case is because people with more spine stood up to it. And to a large extent because Muslims have been shitting on their own plate for so long it is starting to smell. The absence of the Caliphate is not evidence that Islam is benign. Rather it is evidence that Islam is so deleterious that it destroyed itself from within, and is still doing so.

Quote:

Even the Islamic groups that do want control can’t agree.

They agree on a lot. They disagree on who should do the controlling.

Quote:

Islamic (and non-Islamic) groups throughout the world are currently fighting it out for control of their own states.

Which, you would have to agree, is fair enpugh. It’s what we begged Iraqis to do when Saddam was in power.

We would like them to take a stand on the side of democracy and share power with other Muslims. But that is not what Islam is about.

Quote:

And alas, most Muslims live in pro-Western, European political systems and are happy to do so.

Many of these are barely functional democracies and have a poor human rights record.

Quote:

But both states are the financial and geographic centre of extremist Islam.

How do we account for that?

Saudi Arabia is at the heart of Islam. Pakistan is one of those barely functioning democracies. I give you that it is anti-western, but that is hardly the critical issue here.

Quote:

The islamic text I follow doesn't vilify. It preaches tolerance and freedoms.

Which one is that? The Koran? Does it mention anything about following Muhammed's example?

Quote:

You don't deny the existence of these particular texts - you just argue that they have been abbrogated.

So you only follow bits of the Koran? Why didn't you point out this abrogation concept all those times I have asked you what your method is for interpreting Muhammed's example? Is it because the only reasonable interpretation of Islam is that the violent, punitive version of Islam abrogated the early "wishy washy" version of Islam?

Quote:

Though I do not deny that vilification and demonisation of non-muslims exists in muslim communities and countries. And I also do not deny that in many instances it is institutionalised and justified on doctrinal grounds. You ask me what I think about this - I answer by saying it is unacceptable and must be fought.

You spend most of your time denying that it exists. How can you fight something that you don't believe exists? In the case of Malaysia, how are your efforts going at fighting the doctrinal view that apostates should be executed and adulterers should be stoned to death? How many of the locals have you swayed with your argument that they don't really think what they say they think?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged