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" ... give the finger to the infidel next door". (Read 4391 times)
True Colours
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #15 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 5:52pm
 
Stratos wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:37am:
freediver wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 9:35pm:
How do you feel about Gandalf's justification for Muhammed executing 800 Jewish POWs in one day?


I feel like this has been explained a million times before. They were traitors not POWs. They had supported and incited an invading enemy, and then turned their swords on people whose state they were living in.


Stratos wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:37am:
I think there is no excuse ever to execute POWs.


Execution should be reserved for the worse cases.

After WWII the general attitude in Australia was outrage that not enough Japanese POWs were executed by the American-dominated war crimes tribunals.

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freediver
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #16 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 9:00pm
 
Quote:
I think there is no excuse ever to execute POWs.  however, you are just moving the goalposts on this, as your original statement was:


Hardly. This is what you claimed:

Quote:
This very forum has two Christian posters who praise genocide and baby killing.  if any Muslim posters had similar sentiments I'd call them out on it too.


Do I have to find an example that is exactly identical before you will feel forced to criticise a Muslim? Is Gandalf's (and TCs) spineless apologetics for Muhammed executing 800 Jewish POWs not a "similar sentiment"?

Quote:
referring to Christian beliefs, when as stated, and as you well know, there are two Christians here who have justified genocide and infanticide, even going so far as to say it is a good thing.  If this isn't an "extreme example" I think you need to raise your standards FD


I agree that it is an extreme example. However you miss the point of what I said: even the most extreme examples you can find still don't come close to the familiar Muslim ones.

Quote:
I feel like this has been explained a million times before. They were traitors not POWs. They had supported and incited an invading enemy, and then turned their swords on people whose state they were living in.


Yes we are familiar with the semantics of pretending they are not POWs, and the baseless claims without historical evidence. There is no need to remind us.

Quote:
Execution should be reserved for the worse cases.


You mean Jewish POWs?

Quote:
After WWII the general attitude in Australia was outrage that not enough Japanese POWs were executed by the American-dominated war crimes tribunals.


Nice. We can always rely on Muslims to speak on our behalf.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #17 - Apr 9th, 2014 at 8:18am
 
traitorous POWs then?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #18 - Apr 9th, 2014 at 8:54am
 
Spineless apologists.
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True Colours
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #19 - Apr 9th, 2014 at 10:55am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 9:00pm:
Is Gandalf's (and TCs) spineless apologetics for Muhammed executing 800 Jewish POWs not a "similar sentiment"?



Can you provide one case of Muslim army killing Jewish POWs? If you search through history you will find that Muslim armies did not kill Jewish POWs.

The only Jewish captives ever killed were the traitors from the Qurayza tribe.  They were not POWs because to be a POW you have to be a soldier from a foreign state. The Qurayza were traitors inside the Islamic state who helped the enemy in time of war.

In wars fought between Muslims and Jews POWs were not killed, but rather routinely released. In Prophet Muhammed's time thousands of Jewish POWs  were mercifully given their freedom. This occurred in a time when freeing POWs was unheard of - in 7th century Arabia the norm had been to kill all POWs or at least enslave them.
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Soren
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #20 - Apr 9th, 2014 at 11:11am
 
True Colours wrote on Apr 9th, 2014 at 10:55am:
freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 9:00pm:
Is Gandalf's (and TCs) spineless apologetics for Muhammed executing 800 Jewish POWs not a "similar sentiment"?



Can you provide one case of Muslim army killing Jewish POWs? If you search through history you will find that Muslim armies did not kill Jewish POWs.

At least 86 Israeli POWs were killed in 1973 war, new documents reveal.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/.premium-1.548609
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polite_gandalf
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #21 - Apr 9th, 2014 at 11:25am
 
To be POWs, the Qurayza would had to have openly renegged on the treaty they had with Muhammad, and declared their sessession from the Medinan state they were then part of. Then we would have two separate, independent powers, who could wage war against each other, and take POWs from each other.

That is not what happened. The Qurayza led the muslims to believe they remained faithful to the treaty, and therefore remained as part of the medinan state. However at the same time they secretly conspired with the Meccans - who at that stage were trying to anhialate the Medinan state - to open up a second front from within - and according to the Sealed Nectar, conducted actual operations against the muslims. All the while the Qurayza were 'keeping up appearances' by sending the muslims supplies, so as to not arouse suspicion. The negotiations they were having with the Meccans fell through over the issue of hostages (each side would take hostages as insurance policies). Since the Qurayza were in the business of treachery, they knew full well the danger of themselves being stabbed in the back.

When the Meccans abandoned the siege and went home, the Qurayza knew the game was up. Their treachery exposed, they immediately barricaded themselves inside their fort. Muhammad, having barely survived an attempted genocide, wasn't about to let one of the conspirators in that attempted genocide to remain a threat. Having let another hostile tribe leave with all their possessions and watched as they launched hostilities against Medina, Muhammad wasn't about to make the same mistake. So after offering a reprieve for any individuals who abandoned their treacherous tribe (which a few accepted), off came their heads.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: " ... give the finger to the infidel next door".
Reply #22 - Apr 10th, 2014 at 8:10pm
 
Quote:
Can you provide one case of Muslim army killing Jewish POWs?


Yes. I can give an example of them killing 800 of them in one day.

Quote:
The only Jewish captives ever killed were the traitors from the Qurayza tribe.


I am familiar with the argument. They cannot possibly be POWs because they are treacherous Jews who turned against their own leader, Muhammed. We know this because Muhammed told them he was their chosen one.

Quote:
They were not POWs because to be a POW you have to be a soldier from a foreign state.


So there are no POWs in civil wars? There was no state at the time. Slaughtering the Jews was part of Muhammed's campaign to establish a state, with him at the top. At the time he had already kicked the only other two powerful Jewish tribes out of Medina. This was the last tribe standing in his way. Despite his open treatment of the other two tribes and generously informing them that he was their prophet and that should convert in case he kills them, they inexplicably turned against him.

Quote:
In wars fought between Muslims and Jews POWs were not killed, but rather routinely released.


Except of course when it was more convenient for Muhammed to slaughter them en masse. In one of Muhammed's more generous gestures, he once freed his war captives to work Muhammed's own land with Muhammed's equipment, and only had to pay him half of what they produced. The land and equipment was Muhammed's because he had just stolle it all from them, but it was generous of him to let them stay on it.

Quote:
This occurred in a time when freeing POWs was unheard of - in 7th century Arabia the norm had been to kill all POWs or at least enslave them.


Crap. The slaughtering of POWs was almost unheard of. Muhammed enslaved plenty of war captives. The rest just had everything stolen from them and had to pay exhorbitant taxes to compensate Muhammed for the inconvenience they caused in in obtaining their land and posessions.

Quote:
To be POWs, the Qurayza would had to have openly renegged on the treaty they had with Muhammad


More Muslim spineless apologetics. To be a POW, you merely have to be a prisoner of war.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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