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You have personally argued that this tribe of Jews were a borg-like entity in the eyes of the law, to the extent that all must be held accountable for the crimes of a few, without a trial, and without regard for the intentions or even actions of the individuals, such that Muhammed slaughtered many of the people who had materially assisted his war effort. You justify this by saying that they were all - every single one of them - scheming Jews. It was the fact that they were Jewish that made Muhammed so desperate to get rid of them. They were a powerful group who would not bow down to them, and Muhammed could not tolerate that. That is why he got rid of all three tribes.

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You have used the term plotting and traiterous. I think treacherous was one of Abu's favourites. I don't recall seeing either of you use the term in reference to non-Jews. I guess it is just a coincidence that Islam compels you to portray so many Jews this way.

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:


plotting and traitorous - yes, plottting and traitorous jews - no.

I deliberately avoid the term because it clearly contains all the usual anti-semitic connotations, and is therefore racist. You know this and I know this - so lets not pretend to be naive about it. You are determined to pin this turn of phrase on me in a desperate attempt to depict me as an anti-semite - the lowest method of debating. Its far easier to "debate" me through cheap sloganeering that dismisses me as a nazi, rather than sensibly address any of my actual points. I don't believe their fate had anything to do with their religion, and everything to do with their betrayal. I have even expanded on this previously, explaining that these particular tribes could only be called 'jewish' by a very loose definition of the word. Even if they originated from Palestine (and its likely they weren't), they were not at all familiar with the jewish holy books, and probably didn't even speak Hebrew. They were more generic monotheists than jewish.

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2014 at 10:06pm:


You are incapable of discussing this without pulling out the cheap anti-semitic card. You're doing it now. Thats why you continually put the language of anti-semitism ("scheming/plotting jews") in my mouth. Its a standard tactic of yours actually - put words in all muslim's mouths - whether its me or Abu or the Grand Mufti or the generic "some muslims".

freediver wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:


But what happens when G does not accept this compulsion, FD?

Are you trying to force him to do so?

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Like I said, because Islam compels you to. Because Muhammed himself was an atni-semite and you must excuse every single thing he said and did. Because there is no moral argument that justifies slaughtering 800 POWs.

The apostle assembled them in their market and addressed them as follows: "O Jews, beware lest God bring upon you the vengeance that He brought upon Quraysh and become Muslims. You know that I am a prophet who has been sent - you will find that in your scriptures and God's covenant with you."

Does that sound like the words of a peacemaker who saw the Jews as equals? Convert or die? I am your prophet and you already know this? Or does it sound like a belligerent wannabe autocrat trying to start a fight with the last Jewish tribe standing in the way of his total domination over Medina? Muhammed would not tolerate the Jews, because the Jews would not bow down to him. He could not tolerate a society in which they were his equals and in which they held any political power, so he got rid of them from Medina and created a society in which they are inferior. This is not your standard religious view of whose religion is the one true religion. This is a society in which the Jews are legally inferior to Muslims. It is an integral part of Islam. It is institutionalised anti-semitism, and it started with expelling and slaughtering the Jews of Medina and cynically trying to spin it as self defense against scheming Jews - a cynical defense which you as a Muslim are obliged to trot out on demand.

I don't think that's going into the Wiki, G.

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You choose to believe that excusing the slaughter and forced mass migration of Jews and blaming it all on the Jews is not anti-semitic. You are compelled to choose this, by Islam. You were given free will, and you gave it up for Islam.

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You don't disagree with me on any of the details. You merely believe the islamic spin that excusing the slaughter and forced mass migration of Jews and blaming it all on the Jews is not anti-semitic.

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How about sucking it up and being objective?

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I know you subscribe to a different version. You spin it differently to Abu. Yet you offer the exact same limp wristed excuses for the slaughter and forced mass migration of Jews. I am curious about how you manage to spin it all to be completely compatible with western values. Abu was a bit more honest about this. Every question I have put to you about it is brushed off.

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I believe that you believe what you are saying. Islam compels you to believe it. You believe it is "nice" to slaughter 800 Jews in one day and blame it all on the victim. You are a good Muslim.

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Islam compels you to believe Muhammed was really a nice bloke and had a perfectly good reason for doing all the evil things he did. It would be scary if I had the same compelling influence on anyone. Even a lapdog has more sense of independence.

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Now I am confused. What do you spit on?

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Islam intends you to accept the hollow spin it places on Muhammed's deeds. Your understanding seems perfectly correct from an Islamic perspective.

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Now I see your confusion. It has nothing to do with race. Muhammed had every intention of converting the Jews, even the black ones, and turning them all into his mindless drones. It was their refusal to bow down to him, and the political threat they posed, that drove Muhammed to get rid of them all. It's about religion and politics (same thing in Islam), not race. Your religion compels you to be an anti semitic person in the same way a neo-nazi insists that the holocaust did not happen.

freediver wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:


To be anti-semitic I would have to justify the slaughter of jews on some stereotypical negative characteristic perceived to be innate to jews. I do not - thats why you have to keep putting words in my mouth and persist with the "scheming jew" meme, or one of its many variations - which I have never once used. I justify the execution of people for planning the destruction of the people they are pretending to be loyal to. This has nothing to do with hating jews for being jews, and is therefore not anti-semitic.