Australian Politics Forum - The Christian Right

Frances

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #30 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:27am

GA wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

Frances wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:00am:

GA wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

The Christian Right

Where in the article does it state that these eleven people demonstrating outside a Liberal MP's office were right wingers?

It doesn't, and if anything they are from the Christian left. But it's still an example of a group that's on the right, in the social sense, standing up against the actions of nationalistic government. And don't get me wrong, I'm not actually agreeing with their motivations anyhow, because for one thing they are showing signs typical of a group that's really being motivated by the X factor thing. That is they are concerned for the 'children' involved, when that concern is really the domain of the children's parents. What I mean is help the adults, and those that are parents then are allowed to carry out the responsibility for taking care of their own children. The response is an 'emotionally based one rather than a combination of emotion and logic. But still it's better than no-one doing anything.

Quote:

GA wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Consider for example how superior the Exclusive Brethren are compared to the regular Aussie 'culture'.

The Exclusive Brethren are not a mainstream Christian group. There is also no evidence contained in the article that they were involved in this protest. Why are you dragging them into it?

Once again you are right, but they were brought into the picture as being an example of what might be a superior culture that has arisen separate (out of necessity) from our own. What I mean is the only way possible that something 'new', in a cultural sense, can come about in Underdogland, with it's enforced egalitarianism, is if it starts off for example as a religious cult. A diversity that being brought about by necessity kind of thing too .

So this is just another Christian bashing thread?

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #31 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:42am

Frances wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:27am:

GA wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

Frances wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:00am:

GA wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

The Christian Right

Where in the article does it state that these eleven people demonstrating outside a Liberal MP's office were right wingers?

It doesn't, and if anything they are from the Christian left. But it's still an example of a group that's on the right, in the social sense, standing up against the actions of nationalistic government. And don't get me wrong, I'm not actually agreeing with their motivations anyhow, because for one thing they are showing signs typical of a group that's really being motivated by the X factor thing. That is they are concerned for the 'children' involved, when that concern is really the domain of the children's parents. What I mean is help the adults, and those that are parents then are allowed to carry out the responsibility for taking care of their own children. The response is an 'emotionally based one rather than a combination of emotion and logic. But still it's better than no-one doing anything.

Quote:

GA wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Consider for example how superior the Exclusive Brethren are compared to the regular Aussie 'culture'.

The Exclusive Brethren are not a mainstream Christian group. There is also no evidence contained in the article that they were involved in this protest. Why are you dragging them into it?

Once again you are right, but they were brought into the picture as being an example of what might be a superior culture that has arisen separate (out of necessity) from our own. What I mean is the only way possible that something 'new', in a cultural sense, can come about in Underdogland, with it's enforced egalitarianism, is if it starts off for example as a religious cult. A diversity that being brought about by necessity kind of thing too .

So this is just another Christian bashing thread?

Hardly. I'm a theist myself. Is it my writings that bad that it comes across as though I'm 'against' Christianity? I mean, I've believed for quite a few decades that the Christians will one day be part of a solution to our problems.

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Kat Gold Member Offline Socialism IS the answer. Posts: 17709 Everywhere and no-where Gender:	Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation? Reply #32 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:59am The only thing the Christian Right are interested in saving, are the Christian Right. All others are going to Hell.
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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #33 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:04pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:54am:

GA wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:53am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:51am:

GA wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

Schu wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Doesn't the Exclusive Brethren dictate that their members can't vote in government elections? So they don't believe in democracy and take a dictatorial approach to those who are members.

Our society is presently dictating plenty of things to us. For example who has had the opportunity to vote against (or for) gay rights? (the argument being that it would be appropriate for a government to cater to those that are different, but should we the people be made to pander to them just because they are different?)

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If the Exclusive Brethren is so anti-society, why don't they buy an island and all just live there?

If you are so anti-Brethren wouldn't it be easier for you to buy the island and move to it.

The Brethren are well within their rights to express a bias by doing their best to remain as separate as is possible from the rest of society. So it's people like you that should follow that example and isolate yourselves rather than attack them for their values. It's the 'Aussie's' that are on the attack here in this country, not the Brethren.

Why would we need to vote for or against gay rights? Do we need to vote for human rights? Shouldnt those rights just be assumed.

Gays aren't human?

Yes, yes they clearly are. So therefore we shouldnt need to vote for or against gay rights. They should be assumed.

What about 'nudists rights' can they also be assumed? Being undressed is very natural state.

Rights are fundamental things, they are different to laws. For example many consider it a right to bear arms. But that's not saying there can't also be a law (in parallel) prohibiting the bearing of arms (the particular situation deciding which is the stronger the right or the law). So the problem really is that gay rights are something that is being legislated. And by doing this you in fact legislate homosexuality itself. Creating a legal precedent that has all sorts of ramifications for the future of society.

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Vuk11

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #34 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:11pm

GA wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:31am:

Philosophy has never had an effective hold on society because it's not really offering anything of of 'substance'. I mean it has no 'God' for example. Besides it's to lofty in most cases to appeal to a majority. And would be mostly irrelevant in a Godless universe anyhow, because it would be overridden in most instances by all 'survival of the fittest' type values. What religion needs to do is adopt a more philosophical approach, that way in itself it becomes a vector for logic as well as morality etc. But of course it must be kept in mind that there may be philosophies that are in themselves Darwinistic, capitalism for example.

I disagree that it offers nothing of substance, it offers confirmation and validation of our principles and allows us to deconstruct and criticize society to find logical inconsistencies and immoralities we can all agree on.

With philosophy + economics we can see how it's okay that people stand in line at the shops and how it's become a social norm, that is immoral to go against even though some do.

We can look at concepts like ownership and really find out where it comes from so as to resolve issue that include disputes over ownership. We can get property rights from it that put forward things we can all agree on like the fact that we own ourselves and use this principle to find contradictions in society.

It's place is to ask the hard questions and make us reflect as a society, which I argue is very important. Though anyone in ethics would agree that regardless survival trumps morality and that's okay. If someone is starving and steals an apple, theft is still wrong but we can understand those grey areas where it goes out the window.

Religion is viewed now by younger generations as an archaic form of control that is illegitimate. The east doesn't face this problem because Lao Tzu didn't cause millions of deaths, nor did Confucious. However Catholicism has a lot to answer for a lot of immorality that people won't forgive it won't be able to transform itself to anything but what it is.

I would add as well that I think we all want to live in a more moral society. That we want to recognise when laws are immoral and when religions are immoral and change as a society for the better. Who wants to live in a society full of immoral laws that control people with things they all disagree they should be forced to do? Just because it's "legal".

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #35 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:18pm

Gnads wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:

The Exclusive Bretheren are as close as anyone would want to get to a "Cult".

If that's going to be our only saving grace then I'll take the trip

down the tubes.

EB, Jehovas, Mormons & 7 Day Adventers....... all similar dictatorial sects/cults.

But the 'Aussie's' is a failed cult-ure, so shouldn't we be looking at successful alternatives? And we've got nothing to be worried about regarding the Brethren anyhow, as the limitations are built in. Their exclusiveness is itself a limiter (as far as multiplication goes), one that can't be relaxed in any way if they are to maintain their momentum, and leaving them with a limited gene pool (something that is already showing itself I believe).

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« Last Edit: Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:33pm by GA »

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #36 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:50pm

Kat wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 10:59am:

The only thing the Christian Right are interested in saving, are the Christian Right.

All others are going to Hell.

It's in the mutual interest of the two groups both presently fighting a losing battle, to align themselves. The Christian right, without effective political representation (something they haven't got) will fail. Patriots without a movement (and money) will also fail. The left, as a representation of the 'X' factor will be victorious. The patriarchs, all males (includes God and Jesus) and all things considered patriarchal, including patriotism itself, will eventually be eliminated.

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Schu

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #37 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:19pm

GA wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

Schu wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Doesn't the Exclusive Brethren dictate that their members can't vote in government elections? So they don't believe in democracy and take a dictatorial approach to those who are members.

Our society is presently dictating plenty of things to us. For example who has had the opportunity to vote against (or for) gay rights? (the argument being that it would be appropriate for a government to cater to those that are different, but should we the people be made to pander to them just because they are different?)

With one fundamental difference: as a democratic society we can vote out governments at elections if we do not like their approach. This is not possible in a dictatorship.

In the society in which we live, we elect representatives to make the decisions for us. It would be impractical for the entire population to vote on every issue.

Your comment about "gay rights" is completely beyond the scope of what was said. Why single that out? We don't vote directly on the construct of most of society, from health to education to tax to crime.

But unlike the Exclusive Brethren we do have a say in how things are run by whom we vote to be our representatives.

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If the Exclusive Brethren is so anti-society, why don't they buy an island and all just live there?

If you are so anti-Brethren wouldn't it be easier for you to buy the island and move to it.

The Brethren are well within their rights to express a bias by doing their best to remain as separate as is possible from the rest of society. So it's people like you that should follow that example and isolate yourselves rather than attack them for their values. It's the 'Aussies' that are on the attack here in this country, not the Brethren.

Actually, voting in Australia is compulsory so their position breaches the law and they are not "well within their rights" to tell their members not to vote.

Further, to attack democracy and compulsory voting, both fundamental components of Australian society and culture IS an attack on our values.

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red baron

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #38 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 8:01pm

Exclusive Bretheren a bunch of cultists who worship behind locked doors.

Think we've heard enough about cultists like Scientology. They are bad news...cults never bring common good with them.

Do you think God wanted cultists?

His son Jesus Christ's teachings were for everyone and the rules are as simple now as they were then, they're called the Ten Commandments.

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« Last Edit: Apr 17^th, 2014 at 8:06pm by red baron »

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #39 - Apr 18^th, 2014 at 11:22am

Schu wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 7:19pm:

GA wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

Schu wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Doesn't the Exclusive Brethren dictate that their members can't vote in government elections? So they don't believe in democracy and take a dictatorial approach to those who are members.

Our society is presently dictating plenty of things to us. For example who has had the opportunity to vote against (or for) gay rights? (the argument being that it would be appropriate for a government to cater to those that are different, but should we the people be made to pander to them just because they are different?)

With one fundamental difference: as a democratic society we can vote out governments at elections if we do not like their approach. This is not possible in a dictatorship.

We don't live in a democratic society, as well you are aware. It's the election process only (thank God) that's democratic. And voting out a government on an issue that appears insignificant wouldn't happen, and even if it did it'd be to late, the legislation would already be in place.

Quote:

In the society in which we live, we elect representatives to make the decisions for us. It would be impractical for the entire population to vote on every issue.

It would be entirely practical (using the internet), and the scenario of the 'workers running the factory' should be a real worry to any patriot.

Quote:

Your comment about "gay rights" is completely beyond the scope of what was said. Why single that out? We don't vote directly on the construct of most of society, from health to education to tax to crime.

It might appear off-topic, but it's relevance relates to the lobbying by the Brethren on that particular issue (a moral one from their perspective).

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But unlike the Exclusive Brethren we do have a say in how things are run by whom we vote to be our representatives.

Our government is made up of what are representations of primary effects. The left for example being representative of our soft-side, the right our hard-side. And as these two sides predominate, there's is no effective representation for our logical side. A thinking party does not exist (it can only exist I believe in the form of patriotism). In that context the Brethren are effectively 'more' democratic than we are. Their members can at least leave, whereas any defiance of 'our laws' might land us in jail.

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If the Exclusive Brethren is so anti-society, why don't they buy an island and all just live there?

If you are so anti-Brethren wouldn't it be easier for you to buy the island and move to it.

The Brethren are well within their rights to express a bias by doing their best to remain as separate as is possible from the rest of society. So it's people like you that should follow that example and isolate yourselves rather than attack them for their values. It's the 'Aussies' that are on the attack here in this country, not the Brethren.

Actually, voting in Australia is compulsory so their position breaches the law* and they are not "well within their rights" to tell their members not to vote.

The Boston Tea party revolt was against the law too, Americans don't look back at that with any regrets. And beside even in Aussieland they are within their rights, not voting is not a 'crime'. And free speech is a right (QLD being a notable exception) for now. Besides they would hardly need to tell their members not to vote. And on religious grounds they would (should) be allowed exemptions anyhow.

Quote:

Further, to attack democracy and compulsory voting, both fundamental components of Australian society and culture IS an attack on our values.

Yes it is an attack on our 'values', which is something I do all the time.

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #40 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 11:32am

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 6:11pm:

GA wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 10:31am:

Philosophy has never had an effective hold on society because it's not really offering anything of of 'substance'. I mean it has no 'God' for example. Besides it's to lofty in most cases to appeal to a majority. And would be mostly irrelevant in a Godless universe anyhow, because it would be overridden in most instances by all 'survival of the fittest' type values. What religion needs to do is adopt a more philosophical approach, that way in itself it becomes a vector for logic as well as morality etc. But of course it must be kept in mind that there may be philosophies that are in themselves Darwinistic, capitalism for example.

I disagree that it offers nothing of substance, it offers confirmation and validation of our principles and allows us to deconstruct and criticize society to find logical inconsistencies and immoralities we can all agree on.

You're are trying to sell philosophy to philistines, they wont buy unless there is some sort of back up. A God is needed as the substance, otherwise philosophy itself is kind of an abstract thing that's not being seen as going anywhere in particular.

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With philosophy + economics we can see how it's okay that people stand in line at the shops and how it's become a social norm, that is immoral to go against even though some do.

Fairness vs those(the queue jumpers) who may in the end turn out to be the fittest?

Quote:

We can look at concepts like ownership and really find out where it comes from so as to resolve issue that include disputes over ownership. We can get property rights from it that put forward things we can all agree on like the fact that we own ourselves and use this principle to find contradictions in society.

It's place is to ask the hard questions and make us reflect as a society, which I argue is very important. Though anyone in ethics would agree that regardless survival trumps morality and that's okay. If someone is starving and steals an apple, theft is still wrong but we can understand those grey areas where it goes out the window.

Without religion there are no other rules, which include the 'survival' aspect itself, as it's not guaranteed (a meteorite might destroy civilization tomorrow for example).

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Religion is viewed now by younger generations as an archaic form of control that is illegitimate. The east doesn't face this problem because Lao Tzu didn't cause millions of deaths, nor did Confucious. However Catholicism has a lot to answer for a lot of immorality that people won't forgive it won't be able to transform itself to anything but what it is.

Religion is representative of the 'Y' chromosome as well as the X, so it's seen as being patriarchal to a degree and therefor must be destroyed. The reality is that we've gained far more from religion than we've ever lost by it's existence.

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I would add as well that I think we all want to live in a more moral society. That we want to recognize when laws are immoral and when religions are immoral and change as a society for the better. Who wants to live in a society full of immoral laws that control people with things they all disagree they should be forced to do? Just because it's "legal".

Morality has been declining for the past 50 or more years. The decline has been masked by a pseudo-morality that's based on our emotional side, the 'X' factor. For example we show great concern when children are gunned down in a school somewhere, by aren't all that interested in the greater number of children that lose their lives in backyard pools or being run over in driveways.

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #41 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:35pm

red baron wrote on Apr 17^th, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Exclusive Bretheren a bunch of cultists who worship behind locked doors.

Think we've heard enough about cultists like Scientology. They are bad news...cults never bring common good with them.

Do you think God wanted cultists?

His son Jesus Christ's teachings were for everyone and the rules are as simple now as they were then, they're called the Ten Commandments.

The teachings were for everyone, but who's ignoring those us or the EB. Looks to me like they are the ones following the rules better than we are, their crime rate is a lot lower than ours is (I believe). And maybe Jesus would have approved of diversity. We know our selves that having a diverse society improve the chances of there being a break-thru as far as a successful culture goes. Look at the Americans, how diverse they are, variations in the cultures of different states, including people like the Amish.

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #42 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:41pm

fezz wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Take a trip around the wheatbelt towns of WA, you'll soon see how "inclusive' the EB are. Rule their own with an iron fist, generally have monopolies of town business through patient attrition and takeover, exclude the non EB members of town from dealings both public and private. But they are more than willing to fleece the non EB townsfolk of their hard earned with inflated prices on goods in a one price for us / one price for you deal.

OP, if this is the superior model you think will bring Australia back from where ever you think it is now...all I can say is I hope you are an EB believer, if not, you're not gonna have the existence you hope for.

They were presented as an example of a subculture that is at least being dynamic. They are actually moving forward rather than regressing like the 'Aussie' is presently doing.

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #43 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:43pm

GA wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:41pm:

fezz wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Take a trip around the wheatbelt towns of WA, you'll soon see how "inclusive' the EB are. Rule their own with an iron fist, generally have monopolies of town business through patient attrition and takeover, exclude the non EB members of town from dealings both public and private. But they are more than willing to fleece the non EB townsfolk of their hard earned with inflated prices on goods in a one price for us / one price for you deal.

OP, if this is the superior model you think will bring Australia back from where ever you think it is now...all I can say is I hope you are an EB believer, if not, you're not gonna have the existance you hope for.

They were presented as an example of a subculture that is at least being dynamic. They are actually moving forward rather than regressing like the 'Aussie' are presently doing.

Excellent, have they solved the NBN crisis?

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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GA

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Re: The Christian Right - salvation of a nation?
Reply #44 - Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 3:37pm

tickleandrose wrote on Apr 15^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

re GA

Quote:

It's all about their survival. When the EB exclude 'us', they're (effectively) excluding most of our evil. So it's not just something that we should be taking personally. Maybe part of the gripe is that they are also rejecting the 'ideology' that is feminism? If so, then don't worry to much, because as long as they allow even the slightest access to the outside world, the femminization process will eventually override all of their values regardless.

No, I dont take it personally. I merely disagree with their complicated set of belief and control system. They call themselves Christians. But its really against Jesus teaching to be 'exclusive'. Their so called "rules" were made by man to further their own agenda, and hardly a beacon of salvation for a nation, or a vector of patriotism. In addition, what do you mean by "feminization" and ideology of feminism in this case? Please clarify.

I'm a theist but I don't let that dictate my thought processes, that's because we cant be objective if we let our beliefs set an agenda for our thoughts. If you for example are a feminist, then that alone might make it hard for you to look at any particular issue with an open mind ( it's the 'ist' factor).

The Brethren are an example only of success relative to our Aussie culture. If anything they can be seen as an active example of an American culture existing within our own cockney convict culture. And they don't actually refer to themselves as being 'exclusive' even if in effect that's what they are.

The feminization thing is simple, it's just is a little bit hard to explain for me with my poor word skills. It goes something like this: We are all humans and our humanness can be represented by the Chromosomes XX, with XY being the variation. Making us 'more human' in the balance of things on average than if somehow we could have turned out to be XX - YY, so we are softer than we are harder in effect. And because we can't separate ourselves from the rest of physical reality, as much as we might believe we are, the imbalance will represent itself as a 'force' if it's allowed to. The vector for this force, our soft-side, is the media, TV in particular. We are being pushed from the left in other words, and all things that might in some way represent our harder side, those thing we perceive as being in anyway patriarchal, will be under threat from this force. If the normal balance is not restored, logic is not given any say, the X will eventually destroy the Y completely, these things not being conscious decisions, but are a product of a deterministic reality.

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Once again it's to do with survival. If we allow no distinctions to be made, then by default we become vulnerable. For example women and men have dressed differently for thousands of years, abandon this as a 'rule' then there must be a degree of risk created. So it's a bit of a gamble 'we' are taking and although there have been gains, it does now look like we starting to lose. And their dress code applies to the men as well (they're not allowed to wear shorts etc.)

But society is ever changing. What was considered acceptable in the past, does not necessary mean it is acceptable in the present and future. "Rules" in general are made by men (or women), and can be changed over time to adapt to the changing world. Time and time again, we see the regressive societies perish, and progressive and adaptive societies flourish.

It is changing, but there are no rules that say for the better. And if we look back over fifty years we see that things have actually changed for the worse at least as far as statistics go. But this has been masked by increasing wealth in the form of abundance of consumer products for example. Crime rates, drug abuse, suicide & psychosis have increased as have marriage breakups. We ignore most of this because technology has given us plenty of things to occupy our time in an enjoyable way.

Continued in next post.

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