Australian Politics Forum - Right To Bigotry?

austranger Gold Member Offline Opinionated Sod Posts: 1506 adelaide Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #120 - May 5^th, 2014 at 5:42pm May the Great Wombat protect us from " 'ists" of any ilk, I don't know of many that serve the Common Weal to any advantage or profit.
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Yadda

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #121 - May 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm

tickleandrose wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 3:06pm:

Quote:

I don't particularly like the term 'Christian'.
But i guess that i am, a Christian.
I was born, into a non-practising Anglican family.
I am a bible student, i became a bible student.
I read the bible every day, mostly.
I am a seeker of the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.
I am an individual who is seeking forgiveness for all of my mistakes, in this place.

Hey, that sound like my parents. They are sort of 'non proctising' Anglican as well.
What do you mean that you dont like the term Christian? So are you an Anglican? Or something else. It would be helpful for me to understand your perspective. And then, if I can, come up with an entertaining reply to your posts.

What i have against 'modern' Christianity is....

1/ Too many Christians [i.e. their Christian churches and organisations] today are pro-Palestinian [and therefore they are giving aid to ISLAM - ISLAM which actively and 'legitimately' persecutes and murders 'Christians' throughout the world, as a doctrine of ISLAMIC faith].

2/ Many Christian churches and organisations today [who have been taken in by ISLAMIST lies] are slandering the Jewish people, and the state of Israel.

3/ Many Christians may be a member of a Christian church, but they don't / rarely ever read their bible. [when they are being led by men, where is the spirit of God, in their heart ?]

I choose to separate myself from the bulk of those who refer to themselves, today, as 'Christians'.

Quote:

N.b. You sound really really like one of my brother's friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist - am I right? Roll Eyes

I am not a SDA

Quote:

N.b. If you want to keep it a secret, can you at least tell if you believe in Jesus, the resurrection and the holy trinity.

Yes.
Yes.
No.

There is no 'trinity'.

Jesus the man, came as a manifestation of 'God the spirit', in the flesh.

The Jesus who came [among men] as a manifestation of 'God the spirit', is the very same 'God the spirit', who led the children of Israel out of Egypt.

1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And the Jesus who came [among men] as a manifestation of 'God the spirit', is the very same 'God the spirit', who manifested himself as a man [with two companions] to Abraham. [Genesis 18]

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus said....

John 8:23
....Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

+++

As for Jesus 'and' God.....

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21658 A cat with a view	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #122 - May 5^th, 2014 at 7:46pm Of course, what i stated, is only my own perceptions. I don't 'go to church', ....instead, i read the bible, and fast, and meditate, and i say sorry. The Christian churches teach and adhere to what they believe. Christ is the central figure, his work and sacrifice is what we need to acknowledge, to believe in.
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freediver

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #123 - May 5^th, 2014 at 9:46pm

Quote:

I am all for constructive criticisms. To me, a bigot transcends race and religion. E.g. you can have a Christian bigot, a Muslim bigot, or a Communist bigot. They are entitled to their views, however, if they are using their views to hurt others, then they would have to prepare for the consequences.

Hurt their feelings?

What consequences?

Quote:

And it is of my view that the relaxation of the racial discrimination law is detrimental and certainly bad timing at the moment.

What's with the timing?

Quote:

I dont even know how I got cornered like this!

By being so vague.

Quote:

Why do we now need to legislate change ?

Because it is the right thing to do. You cannot defend freedom with censorship, you can only create a facade.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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IQSRLOW

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #124 - May 5^th, 2014 at 9:53pm

This is an area the government needs to remove themselves from. They re effectively legislating thought.

As Brandid said, people have the right to be bigoted, so they can talk and let public opinion be the designated officiator of what is correct. Silencing opinion removes the important part of societies place to rebel or revel that opinion. That is societies job, not the governments.

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Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 84001 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #125 - May 5^th, 2014 at 10:28pm Someone said:- I disagree with your point of view, but I will defend to the death your right to hold it.... Words to that effect....
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IQSRLOW Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1618	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #126 - May 5^th, 2014 at 10:37pm Yes, but the govt with these laws is effectively removing the right of society to regulate itself. This is dangerous to society in that it will erode the ability for society to regulate itself. It will be a skill lost to govt that society needs to function effectively and cohesively.
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The_Barnacle

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #127 - May 5^th, 2014 at 10:39pm

IQSRLOW wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:53pm:

This is an area the government needs to remove themselves from. They re effectively legislating thought.

As Brandid said, people have the right to be bigoted, so they can talk and let public opinion be the designated officiator of what is correct.

That is a cop out.
The idea that "society" or "public opinion" should be the arbitrator is something that a conservative with no connection to the real world would say.

The problem is that Andrew Bolt and the other shock jocks have a very visible public profile and a very public media platform from which they can offend, humiliate and denigrate their victims.

On the other hand the victims don't have any sort of power. This power imbalance is why we need laws to protect the vulnerable from predators like Andrew Bolt

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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #128 - May 5^th, 2014 at 11:50pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:39pm:

IQSRLOW wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:53pm:

This is an area the government needs to remove themselves from. They re effectively legislating thought.

As Brandid said, people have the right to be bigoted, so they can talk and let public opinion be the designated officiator of what is correct.

That is a cop out.
The idea that "society" or "public opinion" should be the arbitrator is something that a conservative with no connection to the real world would say.

The problem is that Andrew Bolt and the other shock jocks have a very visible public profile and a very public media platform from which they can offend, humiliate and denigrate their victims.

On the other hand the victims don't have any sort of power. This power imbalance is why we need laws to protect the vulnerable from predators like Andrew Bolt

What is the fascination with Bolt??
It seems like every time there's a thread like this, some always mentions Bolt or Jones.....Did he steal your tricycle or something?

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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tickleandrose

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #129 - May 6^th, 2014 at 8:52am

re Freediver:

Quote:

Hurt their feelings? What consequences?

There are different levels. If its minor, then usually involves people who disagree with them choose not to associate with them.
If it involves additional physical violence, or demonstratable material damage then either civil or criminal court system can resolve it depending on the nature of the offence.

Quote:

What's with the timing? Because it is the right thing to do. You cannot defend freedom with censorship, you can only create a facade.

You cannot defend freedom with censorship, however, absolute freedom does not equate a fair society. There have to be a balance between the two. Plus, this law in its current format is not about censorship, its about makes it unlawful for someone to publicly "offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate" a person or a group of people. Which in my opinion is fair.

As to the timing, well may be one day. At the moment, I believe the government should get on with the budget issues as matter of priority. Leave this matter for say Christmas time.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #130 - May 6^th, 2014 at 10:19am hurt feelings are a fact of life. live with it.
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tickleandrose

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #131 - May 6^th, 2014 at 10:32am

Re Yadda

Quote:

Of course, what i stated, is only my own perceptions.
I don't 'go to church', ....instead, i read the bible, and fast, and meditate, and i say sorry.

I think this is quiet admirable to live a simple life. Although I cant I agree with fasting (because its health impact), but I can understand that it is only through the pains of fasting, it teaches us about letting go of our material body, that one can learn the true meaning of suffering and be close to God in the process. And saying sorry is about repent, and with it the acknowledgement that everyone, including ourselves are not free from sin.

It is very evident that you are very proficient in the Bible, and as well as the evil parts of Koran. More so than alot of people that I know. Do you have a mentor who help you study? Or rather you have been doing mostly self learning?

So now, after having quoted both from the bible and the Koran about the "evilness" of the Islamic faith. What is your ultimate goal? If say today, you have the power to do any thing in Australia, what would you do about people with Islamic faith.

Quote:

What i have against 'modern' Christianity is....

1/ Too many Christians [i.e. their Christian churches and organisations] today are pro-Palestinian [and therefore they are giving aid to

ISLAM - ISLAM which actively and 'legitimately' persecutes and murders 'Christians' throughout the world, as a doctrine of ISLAMIC faith].

2/ Many Christian churches and organisations today [who have been taken in by ISLAMIST lies] are slandering the Jewish people, and the state

of Israel.

3/ Many Christians may be a member of a Christian church, but they don't / rarely ever read their bible. [when they are being led by men,

where is the spirit of God, in their heart ?]

I choose to separate myself from the bulk of those who refer to themselves, today, as 'Christians'.

I can sort of understand where you come from. But, I believe, we should not put politics into our faith and vice versa. Firstly, the Christians and Pro Palestinian. You see it the wrong way. I see that these Christians are there to help the Palestinian people who are suffering. They speak out about the poor condition that they live in, the lack of future, the lack of rights and as well as issues of violence and conflict. They are, in their perceptive are speaking the truth as well. The same groups would also speak out against the violence that Islamic extremists perpertrated against Jewish Civilians.

In a simplied view, this middle East conflict had been going on for generations. And I believe, in its very core, it is more of a political issue, a political issue about control of land, resources and population. And most people are trapped between this cycle of violence with no real means of escape. If you look down at Modern Christians simply because of you feel that some groups are "pro-Palestinian" and "slandering the Jewish people" - then I am sorry, your understanding of middle East conflict is quiet poor.

Then, there is about people who dont read the bible. Yadda, a robot can recite the bible with 100% accuracy. But does that make that robot Christian? Being a Christian is not only about knowing the bible, but to act with God in your heart. But in your previous posts, you had said:

Quote:

Your moslem friends are either FILTHY LYING MOSLEMS [who are intentionally deceiving you],
OR,
they are apostate moslems [i.e. not moslems at all].

Quote:

Not a single moslem will be redeemed by my God.

When you say these things (without actually meet any of my friends), did you really say these things with God in your heart? Just imagine, you are one of the lucky few who were able to follow Jesus through his journey. And you look at what Jesus have done in his life. Do you think he will agree or disagree with your words?

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2014 at 11:24am by tickleandrose »

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Yadda

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #132 - May 6^th, 2014 at 10:55am

tickleandrose wrote on May 6^th, 2014 at 8:52am:

re Freediver:

Quote:

Hurt their feelings? What consequences?

You cannot defend freedom with censorship, however, absolute freedom does not equate a fair society. There have to be a balance between the two.

Plus, this law in its current format is not about censorship, its about [making] it unlawful for someone to publicly "offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate" a person or a group of people. Which in my opinion is fair.

tickleandrose,

It is ridiculous to suggest that a government should introduce proscriptive laws, based upon how i feel [my feelings].

Why so ?

Because i am RESPONSIBLE, for how i feel.

If i claim that i am offended to see the sun rise over my neighbours property, should the government insist that my neighbour erect a screen on his property, so that the sight of the rising sun won't offend me ?

Ridiculous !

Conversely, if my neighbour tells me that he knows that the moon is made of green cheese,
but i 'feel' offended, because i know that the moon is made up of a collection of old boots [which people have thrown up there], should the government seek to gag or to prosecute my neighbour,
because i have made it known that i would 'feel' offended to know - that some people promote the idea that the moon is made of green cheese ?

OR,
[SCENARIO] My name is Pinocchio, and my nose is 5 inches long.
Truly!

And i always feel humiliated by the fact that my nose is 5 inches long [when everyone else has a nose which is much shorter], so whenever i appear in public, i wear a veil [to cover my face, and to hide my nose!].
Now, if my neighbour discovers that my nose is 5 inches long, and if my neighbour tells people that the reason i wear a veil, is because my nose is 5 inches long, [though he may be, being indiscreet!] is my neighbour humiliating me ?

Surely, feelings like humiliation, anger, fear, insult, offence, are the things which i am choosing to feel ?

e.g.
If i choose to feel happy, am i creating and allowing that feeling, to come into my heart ?

And if the sight of the rising sun offends me, is the 'fault' with the sun [for what i feel] ?

Or is my reaction to the sight of the sun, something which i am responsible for ?

If the sight of the rising sun offends me, doesn't that feeling of 'offence' have its genesis within me [within my own psyche], and isn't that feeling of 'offence', something which is abiding within me ?

p.s.

These ideas which ISLAM encourages [to be 'taken up' within the psyche of a man, as 'LAWFUL'], this is what offends me;

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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A cat with a view

Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #133 - May 6^th, 2014 at 11:54am

tickleandrose wrote on May 6^th, 2014 at 10:32am:

Re Yadda

......the Christians and Pro Palestinian. You see it the wrong way. I see that these Christians are there to help the Palestinian people who are suffering. They speak out about the poor condition that they live in, the lack of future, the lack of rights and as well as issues of violence and conflict. They are, in their perceptive are speaking the truth as well. The same groups would also speak out against the violence that Islamic extremists perpertrated against Jewish Civilians.

......I am sorry, your understanding of middle East conflict is quiet poor.

tickleandrose,

Thank you for your response, in post #131

I am happy for you to express your opinions.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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austranger

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Posts: 1506
adelaide
Gender: male

Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #134 - May 6^th, 2014 at 11:56am

The_Barnacle wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:39pm:

IQSRLOW wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:53pm:

This is an area the government needs to remove themselves from. They re effectively legislating thought.

As Brandid said, people have the right to be bigoted, so they can talk and let public opinion be the designated officiator of what is correct.

That is a cop out.
The idea that "society" or "public opinion" should be the arbitrator is something that a conservative with no connection to the real world would say.

The problem is that Andrew Bolt and the other shock jocks have a very visible public profile and a very public media platform from which they can offend, humiliate and denigrate their victims.

On the other hand the victims don't have any sort of power. This power imbalance is why we need laws to protect the vulnerable from predators like Andrew Bolt

         " Power" is always raised in this subject and others too, the Feminists are very fond of it, and I reckon it's just b/s.
            Attempting to redress the hurts of a sector of the population by making it about "power" and introducing legislation to deal with this mirage will always warp our society, and thus cause more stress and "victims" than any perceived "problem" it's supposed to "fix" .
            Either we have a Democracy that embraces free speech or we have a nanny state that wants to, and indeed has to, dictate every facet of our lives and behaviour. In other words, a Theocracy as of old, with Idealism as it's "God".
                                          Thought Police next?

   To quote the olds.."Bugger that for a game of soldiers"!!!

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