Australian Politics Forum - Right To Bigotry?

Rubin

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #15 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:03pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:46pm:

austranger wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 1:36pm:

My question is....Do we have Free Speech or don't we?

It's like pregnancy, you can't be a bit pregnant, thus equally, to my mind, we can't have speech that's a bit Free.
It's appears to be more.."Free speech, as long as you only say what I like"

What ever happened to.."I may not like what you say but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"?

Now we appear to have to pander to a lot of namby-pamby very touchy prima donnas.
Angry

No, we don't have the absolute right to free speech. We have the English Common Law right to free expression, with in certain limits.

Do you allow or would allow your children to swear at their mother or call her foul names. If you are a good parent I believe you wouldn't allow that I think your answear lies somewhere in there. Or if you like try yelling out bomb next time you're on an airplane. If frees speach was asolute you could see how dangerous good be.

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austranger

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #16 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:13pm

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:16pm:

austranger wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 4:30pm:

I agree with Sparky, these "laws" are selectively applied. Anyone, especially women(no offense to those here), can say pretty much whatever they like to or about men, anyone can abuse Europeans, anyone can say almost anything about Christians, and no-one bats an eye. We(they) are expected to just cop it on the chin. But say one "wrong" thing about women, any non-European race or culture, or about any other religion and watch out, individuals, groups, politicians and poltroons, they'll all be down your throat or up your fundament before you can say Willy Wombat!
As for that observation about our Indigenous brothers, too flamin' right, they're the most abusive and volubly racist persons you're ever likely to run across. Especially up north, where they make up a significant part of the population, no-one is safe from being "told", long, loud, and loquaciously! Huh

And they're not immune to a little prejudice internally either, my best mate in Darwin was a "stolen generation" guy who was raised in WA. He was originally from Darwin and returned there out of curiosity, only to fall in love with the place and remain. He copped it from all directions, the few remaining red-necks, police, and the local Indig gave him more grief than the rest combined. He was a decent hard working guy. Once they'd identified his "roots" he was swamped with "family" trying to bludge off him. The rest of the local Indig automatically assumed that as he was an Indig himself he would give them everything he had without question, and got violently aggressive when he wouldn't. If he hadn't been such a strong and stubbornly independent sort he would have had to leave, they tried to make his life hell, but he just stuck to his guns, although he pretty much gave up going out at night, he simply got sick of being assaulted and forced to defend himself.

You normally post well balanced and thought through posts this is not your best, lots of rationalisations and stero typing. Plenty of people can say they lots of nasty things about Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander very few can say any good most of it comes from a lack of understanding accross al large range of issues. Most couldn't name any of the people yet could rattle off Native American tribe names quite easily. As for the treatment of women not quite as bad as our Aboriginal people but still massive issues across a broad range. It is easy to say white men are being picked on, simply not the case white men are being challenged to change your attitudes so as to live in a more inclusive and secure society. Why does it seams that it is all up to you, put simply white men control most of this society and set the standard. So if everyone else changed the majority of the problem would exist. It is up to us as men regardless of race to understand educate and protect all of our society in a fair and just manor and realise that you might be part of the problem a well the solution.
As black man I put a hand of friendship out to anyone who wants it and will stand up for anyone who is being wronged. I will defend my family and country from anyone who threatens them with all of being, just like you. I don't think many white parents have had to deal with kids coming home from preschool upset because their peers hassled them about their colour.

   Perhaps a little background will help you to understand why my post may seem a little O.T.T.
   I've recently returned from a decade in Darwin, and the greater part of that time I spent working for the Salvation Army in Emergency Housing and Welfare, and serving as a volunteer too.
   I was put through a lot of training courses by them, including Cultural Sensitivity etc. I associated with Indigenous people almost every single day, even after a the stress and strain of my job lead to a heart problem that forced me to retire from the Sallies employ, and I kept up the volunteering till the week I left. I was friends with a few of them and my job kept me involved in all sorts of their family situations and problems. By the time I left I like to think I had earned their respect, they certainly told me I had.
I was physically assaulted more than once by the drunks among them, I had to fend them off from their own women and children occasionally too. I delivered the baby of a young lady from Elcho Island alone, and helped her deal with the abusive father when he tried to take her new-born in a drunken fury, that got me a few bruises. I can't begin to guess how often I was verbally abused, especially in the early years. I was witness to behaviours that would scare the heck out of you, and others that would sicken and disgust you, and I often got to clean up the mess thus created, of all sorts, that was NOT fun!
I also was a part of a private initiative to try and help locals set up small businesses in Wadeye(pronounced wod-air-yer for some reason), previously known as Pt Keats, just about the single most violent town in Australia. I went there as a part of a group to attempt to do so, we failed by the way, the so-called Elders there basically ripped everything off and either sold or destroyed it.

I believe I am entitled to the opinion I hold, and expressed here, by the simple fact that I've done the hard yards.

I've attached a photo or two of Wadeye, they're real, check them.

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Me.jpg (209 KB | 36 )

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austranger Gold Member Offline Opinionated Sod Posts: 1506 adelaide Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #17 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:16pm still figuring how to use img attach, here tho I obscured the faces and logo's for privacy I'm the one in the dark shirt and flat brimmed hat by the by.
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austranger Gold Member Offline Opinionated Sod Posts: 1506 adelaide Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #18 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:18pm 'That'll do, I have more tho
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48850 At my desk.	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #19 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38554 Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #20 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:34pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm: Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech. Cute. Where are the boundaries, if any, freediver.
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Rubin

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #21 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:39pm

Austranger, you my friend are an absolute minority not to many have tried to fix things most just talk out hand with no real expierience or understanding of their own. You spent a fair share of your life trying to good and achieved a fair amount of good from the accounts you gave earlier. They say expectations always lead to disappointment. You spent a decade in the hope to right 170 odd years of wrong you made inroads but mate it takes time as you know exactly how complex those issues are.
Don't take the path of least resistance now that you done your bit inspire others to continue what you and others before have started.
As I stated in my last I do value your opinion as it is usually well balanced and thoughtfull but this is a powerfull emotional subject that can become very deviciesive quickly.
Ps I live in Darwin and have a fair Idea of all you spoke of and I know it's not all sunshine and lollipops up here.

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True Colours

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #22 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:55pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

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austranger

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #23 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:05pm

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:39pm:

Austranger, you my friend are an absolute minority not to many have tried to fix things most just talk out hand with no real expierience or understanding of their own. You spent a fair share of your life trying to good and achieved a fair amount of good from the accounts you gave earlier. They say expectations always lead to disappointment. You spent a decade in the hope to right 170 odd years of wrong you made inroads but mate it takes time as you know exactly how complex those issues are.
Don't take the path of least resistance now that you done your bit inspire others to continue what you and others before have started.
As I stated in my last I do value your opinion as it is usually well balanced and thoughtfull but this is a powerfull emotional subject that can become very deviciesive quickly.
Ps I live in Darwin and have a fair Idea of all you spoke of and I know it's not all sunshine and lollipops up here.

Thanks mate, and know this, I WISH I was still up there, I hate not being. I love that town, I lived in those Flats opposite Shennanigans on Mitchel st for 8 years, and it was brilliant, apart from all the noise from the Esplanade on Anzac Day etc, it always sounded like WWIII was starting, lol.
I left for family reasons but one day...one day.... I'LL BE BACK! Cool

PS. I don't believe I'm taking the path of etc, I'm just a realist and don't often sugar-coat my opinions, I don't see the point. I hate what this country has done in the past, to Indig and others too, but you can't change the past and I see no point in whinging about it, but I CAN do something about MY present, and hopefully the future too, so I do/did what I can. I was always taught..Don't talk about it, do it..so that's what I do.
I like to admit to people that I have only ever done the things I've done and am doing for entirely selfish reasons, and that's true.
It makes me feel good about myself, and you can't get more selfish than that, eh?
Cheesy

Have one at the Top End for me, on the Verandah bar, I always used to play in the Sunday Pool comp' there, before it went all trendy. Won it too, a couple of times. Wink

Or at the Globies down the road, I played there often too.

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Rubin

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #24 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:08pm

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:55pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

If you are talking about the radical Islamic group that where handing letters to widows of Aussie soldiers at there funerals and at times soon after. Telling them that their husbands were evil men. Dam straight they don't have right to do that it's sick not freedom of speech. There has to rules about how you say things, where, and you have to make a reasonable attempts to articulate your thoughts options and grievances without being offensive.

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True Colours

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #25 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:20pm

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:55pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

If you are talking about the radical Islamic group that where handing letters to widows of Aussie soldiers

It was not a group, but a person who is called Man Monis. Sounds Jewish to me. Latest court documents say that he is is some kind of wizard:

Quote:

His alleged victim, who was 27 at the time, allegedly saw an advertisement for ''Spiritual Consultation'' in a local newspaper and contacted Monis. He told her he was an expert in astrology, numerology, meditation and black magic and advised her to visit his clinic...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/spiritual-healer-man-haron-monis-charged-with-sexually-assaulting-client-20140414-36nbh.html

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

. Dam straight they don't have right to do that it's sick not freedom of speech. There has to rules about how you say things, where, and you have to make a reasonable attempts to articulate your thoughts options and grievances without being offensive.

So you agree that free speech has limits?

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Rubin

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #26 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:25pm

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:55pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

If you are talking about the radical Islamic group that where handing letters to widows of Aussie soldiers

It was not a group, but a person who is called Man Monis. Sounds Jewish to me. Latest court documents say that he is is some kind of wizard:

Quote:

His alleged victim, who was 27 at the time, allegedly saw an advertisement for ''Spiritual Consultation'' in a local newspaper and contacted Monis. He told her he was an expert in astrology, numerology, meditation and black magic and advised her to visit his clinic...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/spiritual-healer-man-haron-monis-charged-with-sexually-assaulting-client-20140414-36nbh.html

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

. Dam straight they don't have right to do that it's sick not freedom of speech. There has to rules about how you say things, where, and you have to make a reasonable attempts to articulate your thoughts options and grievances without being offensive.

So you agree that free speech has limits?

Absolutely I agree

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Rubin Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 493 Darwin Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #27 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:28pm http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/it-was-scary-widow-speaks I thought I remembered correctly
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freediver

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #28 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:47pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:34pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

Cute. Where are the boundaries, if any, freediver.

Section 18C and 18D. Libel/slander laws. Any laws that hold you accountable for your words - eg don't yell fire in a crowded theatre, right to privacy, etc.

Quote:

There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

I have no idea of the details.

Quote:

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

Yes. You cannot actually protect people from this sort of thing. We are a mature, free country and we can handle this debate. If you censor the debate, one day someone like Hitler will start it again, and you won't know what to do. It's like over-protecting your children. We should allow John Laws to say these things, and we should counter him. It is better than quashing him and have another Pauline Hanson elected to Parliament on dog whistles.

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:52pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #29 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:00pm

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:55pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

If you are talking about the radical Islamic group that where handing letters to widows of Aussie soldiers at there funerals and at times soon after.

Telling them that their husbands were evil men. Dam straight they don't have right to do that it's sick not freedom of speech.

There has to rules about how you say things, where, and you have to make a reasonable attempts to articulate your thoughts options and grievances without being offensive.

I gotta disagree with you Rubin.

Though the expressed opinions [of those moslems] may be offensive to many Australians, expressing those opinions should not be outlawed, imo.

i.e.
The expressed opinions of 'others' should not be outlawed because those opinions 'offend' our sensibilities.

In the case of those moslems, disrespecting dead soldiers, and disrespecting their sacrifice, surely such opinions should be viewed as a reflection [and not a good one] about 'the character' of those moslems, themselves.

BUT, i do want people like moslems to have the 'opportunity', to tell us to reveal to us what their world view is!

And freedom of speech, which we all have the opportunity to enjoy in a country like Australia, can facilitate our understanding of the world view, of people who are followers of ISLAM !!

But where should the line be drawn, on the limit of freedom of expression ?

Personally, i believe that it should be unlawful [when 'expressing an opinion'], to directly promote and encourage violence against others.

Such people who express such an opinion, should be charged with incitement to violence, and brought to a court of law, imo.

FOR EXAMPLE, IMO, THESE PLACARDS [below] ARE EXPRESSING INCITEMENT TO VIOLENCE, AND SHOULD NOT BE REGARDED AS SIMPLY AN EXPRESSION OF 'FREEDOM OF SPEECH', IMO.

IMAGE...

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

+++

Are forums like this slowly dying?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1365893107/5#5
Quote:

this is what i once posted on the ABC Q&A online forum....

WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS TYPE OF 'MODERATION' IN A [POLITICAL] FORUM?

One obvious consequence is that ALL DEBATE on a particular issue [on such a forum, within that forum] can be 'guided'.

The debate is 'guided', to the point where only 'acceptable' views, will influence THE DIRECTION OF THE DEBATE.

In other words, what is ostensibly [to an outside observer] an open, online forum, for politial debate, becomes a *pseudo* forum for politial debate.

THE WHOLE POINT OF FREE AND OPEN DEBATE

What the ABC forum MODERATORS are effectively saying is,

"Your point of view is [pick one] untrue/offensive/too contentious. And i won't allow such views to be expressed here."

My argument to the MODERATORS is,
ABC forum MODERATORS may disagree with my opinions, and even say that my opinions are untrue or 'offensive' to some.

But if they feel that, then shouldn't they, or somebody else, be prepared to make that argument, IN THE FORUM, against any points i present?

If i do regard ISLAM as an 'offensive' philosophy, then in a 'free and open' forum, shouldn't i be permitted to express that point of view, and to demonstrate, why i hold that particular view about ISLAM?

And if the detractors [of certain comments i have made] have a legitimate complaint, then let them air it [IN THE FORUM], and have their complaint tested in debate!
.....FOR ALL TO SEE.

Shouldn't the ABC forum MODERATORS allow those people who frequent the ABC forum pages, to decide for themselves if my [or anyone elses] arguments have any merit [or not]?

If what i say is untrue, or ridiculous, that fact, will soon become apparent to everyone, when what i say, is exposed to the light of [widespread] scrutiny.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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