Australian Politics Forum - Right To Bigotry?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #30 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:03pm

Trouble is that this become open slather the other way when someone says they 'feel' upset etc.

That has become a yardstick for often very violent intrusion by the State into the lives of ordinary people, and thus has become no more than an avenue for abuse in reverse, as well as an avenue for justifying the 'victim mentality' of some - but not ALL equally.

The intrusion into the lives of ordinary people by the State with all its manifest power and without proper reason is precisely the issue here - at what point does the State buggar off and leave people alone?

I can say - without any foundation at all - that the landing of aircraft at my local airstrip 'makes me feel threatened' - does that justify the State attacking and even imprisoning the pilots of those aircraft?

NO - it does not - and the same applies across the board. Unless I DO something to another, I cannot be held liable by law or policy merely on the basis that someone 'feels' I have done something.

This is a serious issue and one that has created the exact Reign of Terror in our society cited by myself and others, and has also lead to the unwarranted and unearned rise of certain demographics at the expense of others, leading to our currently massively divided and hostile between groups stratified society.

ONLY when someone clearly and specifically uses a biased view to attack another person or group can the idea of 'preventing harm' be applied - NEVER on accusation or assumption.

Our legal system is based on the proper dealing of FACTS - not on what people feel.

Otherwise they are simply catering to paranoia, oft-times blatant insanity, and the urge of some to use such nonsense to gain an unfair advantage over someone else - in itself nothing but another form of abuse.

A complex issue and not one amenable to government intervention with its size eighteen jackboots.

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:11pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Yadda

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #31 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:08pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like.

"Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.

Let me refine that statement slightly, FD.

Freedom of speech means the right - of someone else - to say something that you might not like.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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ian

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #32 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:10pm

I used to believe I was a racist but it was pointed out to me that I am a bigot, using this definition Quote:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

I dont believe in active discrimination against anyone purely on the basis of race, but I do believe there are inherent qualities in specific racial groups or cultures which are superior to others. The current laws are stupid, unworkable and stifle public debate which is the opposite of what we want in a democratic society.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48860 At my desk.	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #33 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:11pm I think you are getting the hang of it Yadda.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #34 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:13pm

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

I used to believe I was a racist but it was pointed out to me that I am a bigot, using this definition Quote:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

I dont believe in active discrimination against anyone purely on the basis of race

gender, colour, or political affiliation

, but I do believe there are inherent qualities in specific racial groups or cultures which are superior to others. The current laws are stupid, unworkable and stifle public debate which is the opposite of what we want in a democratic society.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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ian

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #35 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:25pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

I used to believe I was a racist but it was pointed out to me that I am a bigot, using this definition Quote:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

I dont believe in active discrimination against anyone purely on the basis of race

gender, colour, or political affiliation

, but I do believe there are inherent qualities in specific racial groups or cultures which are superior to others. The current laws are stupid, unworkable and stifle public debate which is the opposite of what we want in a democratic society.

Please dont alter my posts, that is against the rules of the forum.

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Rubin

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #36 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:33pm

I think people seriously under estimate the power of words. Some ideals are straight out dangerous. They lay platform for action to follow we should encourage dialogues that promote productive inclusive society and discourage those that are designed to undermine us, no matter which way you look at bigotry is there to divide societies and set the conditions for action to follow.
Most conversations has and outcome what outcomes do bigots want and why would we entertain those ideas. I don't get it none of you would allow your kids to call you wife a fat so and so , right? Because it's wrong pure and simply. This our society we don't live like that.

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True Colours Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2837 Gender:	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #37 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:20pm So...free speech, should I or anyone else be allowed to advocate sending Jews to gas chambers? Thoughts? Cat got your tongue?
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: Right To Bigotry? Reply #38 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:23pm True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:20pm: So...free speech, should I or anyone else be allowed to advocate sending Jews to gas chambers? Yep. You have the right to state these views, you also have the right to take the consequences for expressing these views.
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austranger

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #39 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:30pm

Often forgotten these days..With rights come responsibilities.

You are free to say what you think/feel/believe.
You must accept responsibility for the results of your free speaking.
   If you speak to incite violence or criminality you must accept that whatever happens consequently is your responsibility, no others. If that is legal prosecution you have no redress, you brought it upon yourself.
   If your speaking causes others to treat you differently or to take action against you then that too is your own responsibility.
   You do not have the right to be heard just because you have the right to speak, you cannot force others to listen.
   If others act incorrectly because you speak then that is a shared responsibility, you cannot escape that by saying it wasn't you who acted.
   If you speak and others take offense it is their responsibility for how they respond, but it is still your responsibility for having spoken, their response does not excuse your speaking.
If you speak insensitively or offensively you cannot blame others for responding inappropriately, the decision to speak thus was yours alone.

   A lot of the problems we face today with bigots, and other extremes of one sort or another is the communication agencies, the media etc, if they chose not to publicise certain things, hate speech, ridicule, incitement of any kind, then these voices would not be heard beyond the immediate area of the speaker, thus lessening the chance of harm.

   I may well not have covered every case or condition but I think I've got across the basics, I hope so anyway.

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True Colours

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #40 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:34pm

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:20pm:

So...free speech, should I or anyone else be allowed to advocate sending Jews to gas chambers?

Yep. You have the right to state these views, you also have the right to take the consequences for expressing these views.

Which, if Abbott has his way, will be?

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ian

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #41 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:36pm

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:34pm:

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

True Colours wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:20pm:

So...free speech, should I or anyone else be allowed to advocate sending Jews to gas chambers?

Yep. You have the right to state these views, you also have the right to take the consequences for expressing these views.

Which, if Abbott has his way, will be?

the proposed alteration of the act appears to me to be little more than semantics. It will still be illegal to incite racial hatred.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #42 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:37pm

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:25pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

I used to believe I was a racist but it was pointed out to me that I am a bigot, using this definition Quote:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

I dont believe in active discrimination against anyone purely on the basis of race

gender, colour, or political affiliation

, but I do believe there are inherent qualities in specific racial groups or cultures which are superior to others. The current laws are stupid, unworkable and stifle public debate which is the opposite of what we want in a democratic society.

Please dont alter my posts, that is against the rules of the forum.

This is a forum? Ooooh - you are touchy tonight..... I didn't 'alter' your post - I simply added to it to make sense.... and to help you on your road to self-enlightenment...

Hoo-yeah!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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ian

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #43 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:38pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:37pm:

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:25pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

ian wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

I used to believe I was a racist but it was pointed out to me that I am a bigot, using this definition Quote:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

I dont believe in active discrimination against anyone purely on the basis of race

gender, colour, or political affiliation

, but I do believe there are inherent qualities in specific racial groups or cultures which are superior to others. The current laws are stupid, unworkable and stifle public debate which is the opposite of what we want in a democratic society.

Please dont alter my posts, that is against the rules of the forum.

This is a forum? Ooooh - you are touchy tonight..... I didn't 'alter' your post - I simply added to it to make sense.... and to help you on your road to self-enlightenment...

Hoo-yeah!

No, you altered my post to include a view i dont hold and didnt express. and yes 2 days without sleep, Im a little grumpy.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #44 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 11:56pm

Rubin wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:03pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:46pm:

austranger wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 1:36pm:

My question is....Do we have Free Speech or don't we?

It's like pregnancy, you can't be a bit pregnant, thus equally, to my mind, we can't have speech that's a bit Free.
It's appears to be more.."Free speech, as long as you only say what I like"

What ever happened to.."I may not like what you say but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"?

Now we appear to have to pander to a lot of namby-pamby very touchy prima donnas.
Angry

No, we don't have the absolute right to free speech. We have the English Common Law right to free expression, with in certain limits.

Do you allow or would allow your children to swear at their mother or call her foul names. If you are a good parent I believe you wouldn't allow that I think your answear lies somewhere in there. Or if you like try yelling out bomb next time you're on an airplane. If frees speach was asolute you could see how dangerous good be.

Exactly. The sort of 'free speech' people keep talking about on these forums could only exist under a system of complete anarchy.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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