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Right To Bigotry? (Read 18996 times)
True Colours
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #45 - Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:59pm
 
ian wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:36pm:
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:34pm:
ian wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:23pm:
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:20pm:
So...free speech, should I or anyone else be allowed to advocate sending Jews to gas chambers?

Yep. You have the right to state these views, you also have the right to take the consequences for expressing these views.


Which, if Abbott has his way, will be?
the proposed alteration of the act appears to me to be little more than semantics. It will still be illegal to incite racial hatred.


Not semantics.

Jews are a very small minority in this country.

Abbott wishes to change the test for offensive from what a vilified person from a minority might find vilifying to what a white Christian finds to be vilifying:

Quote:
To be clear, the Abbott government’s proposed legislation really would allow for almost any racist speech you can imagine. Any “public discussion of any political, social, cultural (or) religious” matter will be exempt, no matter how boneheaded, dishonest or odious.

Precisely how it is possible to racially vilify someone without discussing a “social” matter is beyond me. But for all that, Australia will not simply explode in a blaze of white supremacy upon the repeal of these provisions (which is far from inevitable in any case).

Rather, there is something else at stake here that is much bigger than any particular legislative provision. I’m not so much concerned by section 18C or its repeal, but by the mythology on which that repeal is apparently based. Unspoken at the heart of this debate is a contest over the way race relations works in this country – and on whose terms.

That’s what struck me most about the proposed legislation. It’s just so … well, white. In fact it’s probably the whitest piece of proposed legislation I’ve encountered during my lifetime. It trades on all the assumptions about race that you’re likely to hold if, in your experience, racism is just something that other people complain about.

Subsection (3) – mostly ignored to this point – is perhaps the most subtly revealing. Earlier subsections make it unlawful to do something that is “reasonably likely” to vilify or intimidate someone on the basis of race. But reasonably likely according to whom? Who gets to decide whether something is intimidating or vilifying? Subsection (3) provides the answer.

Whether something is “reasonably likely” to vilify is “to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” it begins. Fair enough. But then it adds in the most pointed way: “not by the standards of any particular group within the Australian community.” That’s code. It means, not by the standard of whatever racial minority is being vilified. Not the ordinary reasonable wog, gook or sand-black person; the ordinary reasonable Australian. And what race is this hypothetical “ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” meant to be, exactly?

If you answered that they have no particular race, then you’ve just given the whitest answer possible. It’s the answer that assumes there is such a thing as racial neutrality. Of course, only white people have the chance to be neutral because in our society only white is deemed normal; only whiteness is invisible.

Every other race is marked by its difference, by its conspicuousness – by its non-whiteness. White people are not non-Asians or non-blacks. They aren’t “ethnic” as the term is popularly used. If the “ordinary reasonable Australian” has no race, then whether or not we admit it, that person is white by default and brings white standards and experiences to assessing the effects of racist behaviour. Anything else would be too particular.

This matters because – if I may speak freely – plenty of white people (even ordinary reasonable ones) are good at telling coloured people what they should and shouldn’t find racist, without even the slightest awareness that they might not be in prime position to make that call.

This is particularly problematic with the proposed offence of racial “intimidation”. To “intimidate” is “to cause fear of physical harm” according to the draft Act. Now our ordinary reasonable white person is being asked to tell, say, black people whether or not they are “reasonably likely” to be fearful of physical harm. Black people – reasonable ones – might actually be fearful, but ultimately a hypothetical white person will decide that for them.

I have no doubt the Abbott government doesn’t intend this. It doesn’t need to. That’s the problem. This is just the level of privilege we're dealing with.

This is what happens when protection from racism becomes a gift from the majority rather than a central part of the social pact. It’s what happens when racial minorities are required to be supplicants, whose claims to social equality are subordinate to those of powerful media outlets outraged they might occasionally have to publish an apology.

And it’s what happens when lawmakers and the culturally empowered proceed as though ours is a society without a racial power hierarchy simply because they sit at the top of it...

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/george-brandis-racial-discrimination-act-changes-create-the-whitest-piece-of-proposed-legislation-ive-encountered-20140327-zqnea.html


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Peter Freedman
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #46 - May 1st, 2014 at 12:41am
 
austranger wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:30pm:
Often forgotten these days..With rights come responsibilities.

    You are free to say what you think/feel/believe.
  You must accept responsibility for the results of your free speaking.
      If you speak to incite violence or criminality you must accept that whatever happens consequently is your responsibility, no others. If that is legal prosecution you have no redress, you brought it upon yourself.
     If your speaking causes others to treat you differently or to take action against you then that too is your own responsibility.
     You do not have the right to be heard just because you have the right to speak, you cannot force others to listen.
     If others act incorrectly because you speak then that is a shared responsibility, you cannot escape that by saying it wasn't you who acted.
     If you speak and others take offense it is their responsibility for how they respond, but it is still your responsibility for having spoken, their response does not excuse your speaking.
    If you speak insensitively or offensively you cannot blame others for responding inappropriately, the decision to speak thus was yours alone.

       A lot of the problems we face today with bigots, and other extremes of one sort or another is the communication agencies, the media etc, if they chose not to publicise certain things, hate speech, ridicule, incitement of any kind, then these voices would not be heard beyond the immediate area of the speaker, thus lessening the chance of harm.

      I may well not have covered every case or condition but I think I've got across the basics, I hope so anyway.
   


Sounds pretty good to me. Well put, austranger.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #47 - May 1st, 2014 at 4:37am
 
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 9:20pm:
Rubin wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 9:08pm:
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 8:55pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 8:31pm:
Freedom of speech means the right to say something you might not like. "Right to bigotry" is just a politically incorrect way of espousing freedom of speech.


There was a bloke who was arrested for sending 'offensive' letters in the mail? Do you think the law was wrong? There was another bloke who was arrested for possessing a magazine, do you think the law was wrong?

Should we allow a Hitler-type person to go around calling upon people to gas Jews? Because its 'freedom of speech' innit?

If you are talking about the radical Islamic group that where handing letters to widows of Aussie soldiers

It was not a group, but a person who is called Man Monis. Sounds Jewish to me. Latest court documents say that he is is some kind of wizard:

Quote:
His alleged victim, who was 27 at the time, allegedly saw an advertisement for ''Spiritual Consultation'' in a local newspaper and contacted Monis. He told her he was an expert in astrology, numerology, meditation and black magic and advised her to visit his clinic...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/spiritual-healer-man-haron-monis-charged-with-sexually-assaulting-client-20140414-36nbh.html



Rubin wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 9:08pm:
. Dam straight they don't have right to do that it's sick not freedom of speech. There has to rules about how you say things, where, and you have to make a reasonable attempts to articulate your thoughts options and grievances  without being offensive.


So you agree that free speech has limits?
There were Muslim groups doing that in England and people were convicted for it.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #48 - May 1st, 2014 at 2:44pm
 
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:59pm:
ian wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:36pm:
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:34pm:
ian wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:23pm:
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:20pm:
So...free speech, should I or anyone else be allowed to advocate sending Jews to gas chambers?

Yep. You have the right to state these views, you also have the right to take the consequences for expressing these views.


Which, if Abbott has his way, will be?
the proposed alteration of the act appears to me to be little more than semantics. It will still be illegal to incite racial hatred.


Not semantics.

Jews are a very small minority in this country.

Abbott wishes to change the test for offensive from what a vilified person from a minority might find vilifying to what a white Christian finds to be vilifying:

Quote:
Subsection (3) – mostly ignored to this point – is perhaps the most subtly revealing. Earlier subsections make it unlawful to do something that is “reasonably likely” to vilify or intimidate someone on the basis of race. But reasonably likely according to whom? Who gets to decide whether something is intimidating or vilifying? Subsection (3) provides the answer.

Whether something is “reasonably likely” to vilify is “to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” it begins. Fair enough. But then it adds in the most pointed way: “not by the standards of any particular group within the Australian community.” That’s code. It means, not by the standard of whatever racial minority is being vilified. Not the ordinary reasonable wog, gook or sand-black person; the ordinary reasonable Australian. And what race is this hypothetical “ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” meant to be, exactly?

If you answered that they have no particular race, then you’ve just given the whitest answer possible.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/george-brandis-racial-discrimination-act-changes-create-the-whitest-piece-of-proposed-legislation-ive-encounte




This is a very stupid argument from Aly. He is arguing that not privileging any particular sub-section or race is racist.

What he is very stupidly arguing is that whites are racists, no matter what they say or do or what anti-discrimination laws they make as long as they do not expressly privilege non-white - racially privileging other races is the only non-racists way.



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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #49 - May 1st, 2014 at 3:43pm
 
No amount of laws or policies legislated could eradicate racism and racial discrimination.

It is time Australians start living in the real world and stop pretending that racism isn't going to exist with or without anti-discrimination policies. Racism exists either way.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #50 - May 1st, 2014 at 3:44pm
 
Abolish the Racial Discrimination Act. It's a useless law.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #51 - May 1st, 2014 at 4:19pm
 
A bigot in its true original definition is someone who is intolerant of any differing creed, belief or opinion. This is the widely accepted definition of bigot until the 90s when blacks, asians, apologetic whites sensationalised the word 'bigot' and falsely defined it exclusively as "a bigot = a racist".

Every one of us has been a bigot at some point in our lives. I am sure every one of us had opposed some opinions and beliefs before.

As a matter of fact, anyone who opposes the Racial Discrimination Act to be repealed/abolished makes him/her a bigot.

So that's why I strongly believe that everyone has the right to be a bigot not only in Australia, but also in other civilised countries. It's a basic human right.
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ian
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #52 - May 1st, 2014 at 5:11pm
 
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:59pm:
[
Not semantics.

Jews are a very small minority in this country.

Abbott wishes to change the test for offensive from what a vilified person from a minority might find vilifying to what a white Christian finds to be vilifying:


I think thats your interpretation, we also have similar state laws in W.A. , there have only been a couple of attempted prosecutions under the act, 1 was against some fellow villifying jews and the other against an aboriginal who racially abused white people.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #53 - May 1st, 2014 at 5:35pm
 
Quote:
So that's why I strongly believe that everyone has the right to be a bigot not only in Australia, but also in other civilised countries. It's a basic human right.


You know when Brandis said: "Everyone have the right to be bigots you know."  Really, he was meaning "Everyone have the right to be racist."  Because it is on the matter of racial discrimination law.  And everyone just assumed he meant the latter.  Now, the attorney general cant say the latter, because it would be political suicide. 

Whatever bigot mean in the past, it has now a new definition.  When you are in charge of a country made of different races and religion (this is the reality), you will want to lead with goal of inclusiveness rather than divisiveness.  So, on this regard, I firmly believe it is the wrong time and circumstance to repeal the law.  And I believe this is really done to divert the masses away from the real issues such as the economy. 
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #54 - May 1st, 2014 at 5:40pm
 
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:59pm:
[quote]
To be clear, the Abbott government’s proposed legislation really would allow for almost any racist speech you can imagine. Any “public discussion of any political, social, cultural (or) religious” matter will be exempt, no matter how boneheaded, dishonest or odious.

Precisely how it is possible to racially vilify someone without discussing a “social” matter is beyond me. But for all that, Australia will not simply explode in a blaze of white supremacy upon the repeal of these provisions (which is far from inevitable in any case).

Rather, there is something else at stake here that is much bigger than any particular legislative provision. I’m not so much concerned by section 18C or its repeal, but by the mythology on which that repeal is apparently based. Unspoken at the heart of this debate is a contest over the way race relations works in this country – and on whose terms.

That’s what struck me most about the proposed legislation. It’s just so … well, white. In fact it’s probably the whitest piece of proposed legislation I’ve encountered during my lifetime. It trades on all the assumptions about race that you’re likely to hold if, in your experience, racism is just something that other people complain about.

Subsection (3) – mostly ignored to this point – is perhaps the most subtly revealing. Earlier subsections make it unlawful to do something that is “reasonably likely” to vilify or intimidate someone on the basis of race. But reasonably likely according to whom? Who gets to decide whether something is intimidating or vilifying? Subsection (3) provides the answer.

Whether something is “reasonably likely” to vilify is “to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” it begins. Fair enough. But then it adds in the most pointed way: “not by the standards of any particular group within the Australian community.” That’s code. It means, not by the standard of whatever racial minority is being vilified. Not the ordinary reasonable wog, gook or sand-black person; the ordinary reasonable Australian. And what race is this hypothetical “ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” meant to be, exactly?

If you answered that they have no particular race, then you’ve just given the whitest answer possible. It’s the answer that assumes there is such a thing as racial neutrality. Of course, only white people have the chance to be neutral because in our society only white is deemed normal; only whiteness is invisible.

Every other race is marked by its difference, by its conspicuousness – by its non-whiteness. White people are not non-Asians or non-blacks. They aren’t “ethnic” as the term is popularly used. If the “ordinary reasonable Australian” has no race, then whether or not we admit it, that person is white by default and brings white standards and experiences to assessing the effects of racist behaviour. Anything else would be too particular.

This matters because – if I may speak freely – plenty of white people (even ordinary reasonable ones) are good at telling coloured people what they should and shouldn’t find racist, without even the slightest awareness that they might not be in prime position to make that call.

This is particularly problematic with the proposed offence of racial “intimidation”. To “intimidate” is “to cause fear of physical harm” according to the draft Act. Now our ordinary reasonable white person is being asked to tell, say, black people whether or not they are “reasonably likely” to be fearful of physical harm. Black people – reasonable ones – might actually be fearful, but ultimately a hypothetical white person will decide that for them.

I have no doubt the Abbott government doesn’t intend this. It doesn’t need to. That’s the problem. This is just the level of privilege we're dealing with.

This is what happens when protection from racism becomes a gift from the majority rather than a central part of the social pact. It’s what happens when racial minorities are required to be supplicants, whose claims to social equality are subordinate to those of powerful media outlets outraged they might occasionally have to publish an apology.

And it’s what happens when lawmakers and the culturally empowered proceed as though ours is a society without a racial power hierarchy simply because they sit at the top of it...

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/george-brandis-racial-discrimination-act-changes-create-the-whitest-piece-of-proposed-legislation-ive-encounted


Another leftist f*ckw*t telling us how racist and privileged whitey is then goes on to make mass generalisations (negative ones at that) about whites.

This f*ckw*t also lecturers in our tax payer funded universities.

The only solution to c*nts like this is to withdraw the funding to those departments pricks like this thrive in.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #55 - May 1st, 2014 at 5:42pm
 
Jackness wrote on May 1st, 2014 at 4:19pm:
A bigot in its true original definition is someone who is intolerant of any differing creed, belief or opinion. This is the widely accepted definition of bigot until the 90s when blacks, asians, apologetic whites sensationalised the word 'bigot' and falsely defined it exclusively as "a bigot = a racist".

Every one of us has been a bigot at some point in our lives. I am sure every one of us had opposed some opinions and beliefs before.

As a matter of fact, anyone who opposes the Racial Discrimination Act to be repealed/abolished makes him/her a bigot.

So that's why I strongly believe that everyone has the right to be a bigot not only in Australia, but also in other civilised countries. It's a basic human right.


I'll concur on that point of view.

The misguided view that only europeans/whites are racists is the basis for the racial vilification act.........

the same could be applied to any religious vilification act...

race & religion are not one & the same yet certain groups apply it that way to suit their victim status
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #56 - May 1st, 2014 at 6:02pm
 
Jackness wrote on May 1st, 2014 at 4:19pm:
A bigot in its true original definition is someone who is intolerant of any differing creed, belief or opinion. This is the widely accepted definition of bigot until the 90s when blacks, asians, apologetic whites sensationalised the word 'bigot' and falsely defined it exclusively as "a bigot = a racist".

Every one of us has been a bigot at some point in our lives. I am sure every one of us had opposed some opinions and beliefs before.

As a matter of fact, anyone who opposes the Racial Discrimination Act to be repealed/abolished makes him/her a bigot.

So that's why I strongly believe that everyone has the right to be a bigot not only in Australia, but also in other civilised countries. It's a basic human right.

Your nearly there but not quite right what you say makes sense due to your omission of key words in the actual definition of the word bigot.
You are right most people are bigoted at some point in their life, however opposing and idea or concept is not bigotry. Suggest you read the meaning of the word again.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #57 - May 1st, 2014 at 6:44pm
 
Imagine mortal human beings thinking they have the right to dictate what other human beings think and say. They'll just have to line up in an orderly fashion (remember no pushing) and commence to suck my balls. Thank you.
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #58 - May 1st, 2014 at 7:58pm
 
NSW and Victoria join forces to oppose Coalition changes to Racial Discrimination Act


The Abbott Government is facing a united backlash from its Coalition colleagues in Victoria and New South Wales over proposed changes to racial discrimination laws.

The two most populous states have lodged formal submissions opposing the changes, warning they would weaken protections against racial vilification and threaten social cohesion.

They are urging Federal Attorney-General George Brandis to abandon plans to repeal section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act.

The change would prohibit vilification and intimidation on the basis of race, but make but make it lawful to insult, offend or humiliate.

The NSW and Victorian governments released a joint statement arguing "the proposed changes threaten the social cohesion and well-being of not just our states' culturally and religiously diverse communities, but also the wider Australian commune...


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-01/nsw-victoria-oppose-coalition-changes-racial-discrimination-laws/5424520
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Re: Right To Bigotry?
Reply #59 - May 1st, 2014 at 8:17pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 1st, 2014 at 5:40pm:
True Colours wrote on Apr 30th, 2014 at 11:59pm:
[quote]
To be clear, the Abbott government’s proposed legislation really would allow for almost any racist speech you can imagine. Any “public discussion of any political, social, cultural (or) religious” matter will be exempt, no matter how boneheaded, dishonest or odious.

Precisely how it is possible to racially vilify someone without discussing a “social” matter is beyond me. But for all that, Australia will not simply explode in a blaze of white supremacy upon the repeal of these provisions (which is far from inevitable in any case).

Rather, there is something else at stake here that is much bigger than any particular legislative provision. I’m not so much concerned by section 18C or its repeal, but by the mythology on which that repeal is apparently based. Unspoken at the heart of this debate is a contest over the way race relations works in this country – and on whose terms.

That’s what struck me most about the proposed legislation. It’s just so … well, white. In fact it’s probably the whitest piece of proposed legislation I’ve encountered during my lifetime. It trades on all the assumptions about race that you’re likely to hold if, in your experience, racism is just something that other people complain about.

Subsection (3) – mostly ignored to this point – is perhaps the most subtly revealing. Earlier subsections make it unlawful to do something that is “reasonably likely” to vilify or intimidate someone on the basis of race. But reasonably likely according to whom? Who gets to decide whether something is intimidating or vilifying? Subsection (3) provides the answer.

Whether something is “reasonably likely” to vilify is “to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” it begins. Fair enough. But then it adds in the most pointed way: “not by the standards of any particular group within the Australian community.” That’s code. It means, not by the standard of whatever racial minority is being vilified. Not the ordinary reasonable wog, gook or sand-black person; the ordinary reasonable Australian. And what race is this hypothetical “ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” meant to be, exactly?

If you answered that they have no particular race, then you’ve just given the whitest answer possible. It’s the answer that assumes there is such a thing as racial neutrality. Of course, only white people have the chance to be neutral because in our society only white is deemed normal; only whiteness is invisible.

Every other race is marked by its difference, by its conspicuousness – by its non-whiteness. White people are not non-Asians or non-blacks. They aren’t “ethnic” as the term is popularly used. If the “ordinary reasonable Australian” has no race, then whether or not we admit it, that person is white by default and brings white standards and experiences to assessing the effects of racist behaviour. Anything else would be too particular.

This matters because – if I may speak freely – plenty of white people (even ordinary reasonable ones) are good at telling coloured people what they should and shouldn’t find racist, without even the slightest awareness that they might not be in prime position to make that call.

This is particularly problematic with the proposed offence of racial “intimidation”. To “intimidate” is “to cause fear of physical harm” according to the draft Act. Now our ordinary reasonable white person is being asked to tell, say, black people whether or not they are “reasonably likely” to be fearful of physical harm. Black people – reasonable ones – might actually be fearful, but ultimately a hypothetical white person will decide that for them.

I have no doubt the Abbott government doesn’t intend this. It doesn’t need to. That’s the problem. This is just the level of privilege we're dealing with.

This is what happens when protection from racism becomes a gift from the majority rather than a central part of the social pact. It’s what happens when racial minorities are required to be supplicants, whose claims to social equality are subordinate to those of powerful media outlets outraged they might occasionally have to publish an apology.

And it’s what happens when lawmakers and the culturally empowered proceed as though ours is a society without a racial power hierarchy simply because they sit at the top of it...

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/george-brandis-racial-discrimination-act-changes-create-the-whitest-piece-of-proposed-legislation-ive-encounted


Another leftist f*ckw*t telling us how racist and privileged whitey is then goes on to make mass generalisations (negative ones at that) about whites.

This f*ckw*t also lecturers in our tax payer funded universities.

The only solution to c*nts like this is to withdraw the funding to those departments pricks like this thrive in.



educated idiots make me sick
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