Australian Politics Forum - About that "infidel tax" on halal products

Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #15 - May 13^th, 2014 at 7:34pm No answer Gandalf, thought not.
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freediver

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #16 - May 13^th, 2014 at 7:48pm

Quote:

2. The argument about consumers being charged a 'halal tax' is based on the completely baseless assumption that the meat processes pass on their halal-certification fees on to the consumer.

Would you mind explaining how you dismiss basic economics as a "completely baseless assumption"?

I notice Gandalf conveniently ignored the concerns that had actually been raised here on this forum, which he has no answer for. For example:

* Halal certification requires religious discrimination in the workplace.

* Halal certification is not entirely optional. It is mandatory for exporting to certain countries, such as Indonesia.

* The Indonesian government exerts a lot of control on the halal certification process within Australia. The goal of this interference goes far beyond ensuring that religious standards are met. Rather, it creates regional monopolies that can extort exhoribitant prices to the extent that despite it being conpulsory for export to many countries, many abbatoirs simply cannot afford it.

* There is little transparency in where the money goes. It would be naive to dismiss this. Muslims have claimed that the money goes to Australian Islamic schools, yet recently, case after case has demonstrated a disturbing tendency for these schools to misappropriate government funds, even where standards for accountability are much higher. If Muslim community leaders see it fit to siphon money away from educating their own children, it is naive to assume all this Halal money goes to entirely benign causes.

Some previous threads where this has already been explained to Gandalf:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1378852212/31#31

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1386760635/8#8

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376746834/248#248

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1392774047/119#119

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1393158659/19#19

Quote:

Finally, I'll inject some very simple common sense into this illogical and hysterical debate: looking at it from a purely business point of view

I have pointed out to Gandalf that you cannot look at it from a "purely business point of view" when foreign governments are creating regional monopolies in Australia with the intent of extorting money. When a government imposes the charge, it genuinely is a tax, and it genuinely is passed onto consumers.

Quote:

these meat processors are free to continue with their non-halal certified meat processing, yet choose to apply for halal certification with all the associated certification fees that comes with it

This is the same concept of "Islamic freedom" promoted by Abu, where people are free to do what they want, so long as they accept the consequences, such as getting your head chopped off for saying the wrong thing. They are "free" to not get halal certification, with the consequence that the Indonesian government will ban their product.

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21786 A cat with a view	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #17 - May 13^th, 2014 at 7:51pm Sparky wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 5:03pm: I hate to break it to you my friend but god doesn't exist. And you know this. 100% ? Sure.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #18 - May 13^th, 2014 at 8:11pm FD, the topic is the alleged 'halal tax' on domestic consumers. Not meat exports to Indonesia, alleged school rorts or baseless claims about intimidation of meat processors by head-chopping extremists.
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freediver

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #19 - May 13^th, 2014 at 9:03pm

The cost is passed onto domestic and foreign consumers. In the name of Islam, the Indonesian government is establishing trade barriers and taxes that push up prices everywhere. I have asked you before to explain Islamic economics before. You have some very strange ideas about how the world works, but you don't even know where you get them from.

Quote:

or baseless claims about intimidation of meat processors by head-chopping extremists

What claims are you referring to?

Quote:

The only sensible and logical conclusion is that these processors want to jump on the halal bandwagon because they know it will be profitable for them.

Would it be reasonable to describe this as Taqiyya?

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« Last Edit: May 13^th, 2014 at 9:08pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #20 - May 13^th, 2014 at 9:57pm

freediver wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 9:03pm:

Quote:
The only sensible and logical conclusion is that these processors want to jump on the halal bandwagon because they know it will be profitable for them.

Would it be reasonable to describe this as Taqiyya?

Sorry my bad - they must want to get halal certification because its unprofitable - right?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #21 - May 13^th, 2014 at 10:10pm

Sparky wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 3:55pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 11:57am:

As you may have noticed there has been a massive moral panic in the UK about the growth of halal certified products, which has permeated into Australia.

Central to this (orchestrated) panic is the idea that consumers are being slugged with a halal-certification tax - which, needless to say, is being used to fund terrorists and all the rest of it. Type in any search related to the key words "halal certified meat" and you will be inundated with thousands of islamophobic sites talking about consumers being forced to pay for the halal certification that has been issued to a range of food products available on the supermarket shelf.

Peeling away the hysteria, its worthwhile understanding the actual facts of this issue:

1. Abbattoirs who are halal certified do get charged a fee to a recognised islamic body to have their facility halal certified.

2. The argument about consumers being charged a 'halal tax' is based on the completely baseless assumption that the meat processes pass on their halal-certification fees on to the consumer.

Read any of the islamophobic sites that screech about this halal tax - or "infidel tax", and not one of them will give you any actual figures for what the consumer is charged for this tax on any given product. This is because the idea is an unfounded assumption based entirely on a flawed and over-simplified understanding of the market - and not on any actual hard facts. The islamophobes peddling this campaign could very easily prove their point by comparing a known halal-certified product with its non-halal certified equivalent product - and simply illustrating the price difference. But they don't - why is that?

Now here's a thought...

- The islamophobes won't demonstrate the halal tax in practice, because, quite simply, the meat processes do not pass on their halal certification costs to the consumer.

- Maybe the business advantage of having a halal-certified product (ie increasing their customer base) overshadows, by a very large margin, the (relatively) small halal-certification fee.

Finally, I'll inject some very simple common sense into this illogical and hysterical debate: looking at it from a purely business point of view, these meat processors are free to continue with their non-halal certified meat processing, yet choose to apply for halal certification with all the associated certification fees that comes with it. Why would they willingly (and discounting the hilariously baseless claim that these processors are forced or coerced by intimidating muslims to make themselves halal) make this decision? Why would any business make a business decision they know would adversely affect their bottom line? The only sensible and logical conclusion is that these processors want to jump on the halal bandwagon because they know it will be profitable for them.

Why can't you just bloody eat the meat without your stupid prayers? What does it matter? When is the world going to move on from witchcraft?

Abracadabra.

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Sparky

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #22 - May 14^th, 2014 at 4:34am

Karnal wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

Sparky wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 3:55pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 13^th, 2014 at 11:57am:

As you may have noticed there has been a massive moral panic in the UK about the growth of halal certified products, which has permeated into Australia.

Central to this (orchestrated) panic is the idea that consumers are being slugged with a halal-certification tax - which, needless to say, is being used to fund terrorists and all the rest of it. Type in any search related to the key words "halal certified meat" and you will be inundated with thousands of islamophobic sites talking about consumers being forced to pay for the halal certification that has been issued to a range of food products available on the supermarket shelf.

Peeling away the hysteria, its worthwhile understanding the actual facts of this issue:

1. Abbattoirs who are halal certified do get charged a fee to a recognised islamic body to have their facility halal certified.

2. The argument about consumers being charged a 'halal tax' is based on the completely baseless assumption that the meat processes pass on their halal-certification fees on to the consumer.

Read any of the islamophobic sites that screech about this halal tax - or "infidel tax", and not one of them will give you any actual figures for what the consumer is charged for this tax on any given product. This is because the idea is an unfounded assumption based entirely on a flawed and over-simplified understanding of the market - and not on any actual hard facts. The islamophobes peddling this campaign could very easily prove their point by comparing a known halal-certified product with its non-halal certified equivalent product - and simply illustrating the price difference. But they don't - why is that?

Now here's a thought...

- The islamophobes won't demonstrate the halal tax in practice, because, quite simply, the meat processes do not pass on their halal certification costs to the consumer.

- Maybe the business advantage of having a halal-certified product (ie increasing their customer base) overshadows, by a very large margin, the (relatively) small halal-certification fee.

Finally, I'll inject some very simple common sense into this illogical and hysterical debate: looking at it from a purely business point of view, these meat processors are free to continue with their non-halal certified meat processing, yet choose to apply for halal certification with all the associated certification fees that comes with it. Why would they willingly (and discounting the hilariously baseless claim that these processors are forced or coerced by intimidating muslims to make themselves halal) make this decision? Why would any business make a business decision they know would adversely affect their bottom line? The only sensible and logical conclusion is that these processors want to jump on the halal bandwagon because they know it will be profitable for them.

Why can't you just bloody eat the meat without your stupid prayers? What does it matter? When is the world going to move on from witchcraft?

Abracadabra.

Allah akbar, we sacrifice this animal and give thanks to this bounty we are about to receive our blessed prophet blah blah blah. All the while some poor animal is getting wrestled to the ground by whatever means possible and then has it's throat cut . Real nice.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #23 - May 14^th, 2014 at 8:50am All halal slaughter in Australia involves stunning Sparky. Sorry no wrestling here.
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Sparky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1338 Gender:	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #24 - May 14^th, 2014 at 11:26am polite_gandalf wrote on May 14^th, 2014 at 8:50am: All halal slaughter in Australia involves stunning Sparky. Sorry no wrestling here. What about the rest of the world?
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Adamant

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #25 - May 14^th, 2014 at 11:45am

Sparky wrote on May 14^th, 2014 at 11:26am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14^th, 2014 at 8:50am:

All halal slaughter in Australia involves stunning Sparky. Sorry no wrestling here.

What about the rest of the world?

Indonesia tenderises cattle first with a block of timber before they kill it "humanely". Grin

No answers yet Gandalf?

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #26 - May 14^th, 2014 at 12:01pm Sparky wrote on May 14^th, 2014 at 11:26am: What about the rest of the world? What about them? I'm more concerned about what happens in my own backyard. But you're free to go to Indonesia and tell them how to run their own country if you really want to.
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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #27 - May 14^th, 2014 at 7:45pm It is about time you owned up to the crap in your opening retort. Common bloody liar aren't you Gandalf. Or are you just a typical muslim?
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freediver

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Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products
Reply #28 - May 14^th, 2014 at 8:09pm

Quote:

Sorry my bad - they must want to get halal certification because its unprofitable - right?

They get it because the Indonesian government puts them out of business if they don't. That's pretty much the definition of a tax. Again, I think it's time for you to explain Islamic economics to us. It might shed some light on all this taqiyya you have been peddling.

Quote:

But you're free to go to Indonesia and tell them how to run their own country if you really want to.

You'd never do this would you Gandalf?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95911 Gender:	Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Reply #29 - May 14^th, 2014 at 9:46pm Ah, Islamic economics. As practiced by KFC, Herbie’s UK Subway franchises, and my local Thai resturant. Cunning, no?
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