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What is the purpose of rules? (Read 2714 times)

freediver

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #105 - May 26^th, 2014 at 7:37pm

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I would be astounded if someone as articulate and well read as you has no insight into the issues of cyber bullying that are quite significant in our modern world.

As far as I am concerned, they only apply when it is linked to someone's real identity - eg high school kids trashing each other's facebook pages. People may feel just as upset about their OzPolitic ID being dumped on. They can get over it.

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It is concerning that you do not consider this.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean I haven't considered it. That is the only way online politics forums can function. The mods are not here to babysit.

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This site clearly has advertising, now I realise that might be a free service you offer to the businesses advertising, however, I suspect it might also afford the board some income.

Not enough to pay someone to moderate.

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Further, it is your site, you want me to give you money to fix an issue that I raise on your feedback board, and you don't see how that might be an issue

You see it as an issue. You want it fixed. That is how you can make it happen. The offer is open to anyone else who cares that much.

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Tell ya what, I will give you ten bucks, you give me the site and I will show you how easy it is to fix.

No thanks.

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b) The status quo seems to be altogether happy with a rule set up that punishes and blames victims rather than address perpetrators.

The rules don't recognise victimhood status. A big part of the problem mods face is people claiming victimhood status and thinking this gives them some kind of right to break the rules. If you see a breach of the rules, report it. You will not be punished for this.

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Of course, all that stuff about a "democracy" is smoke and mirrors then.

This site is so popular because it works.

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As to hardening up, the problem is, when people do harden up and "bite back" as it were, they then have the rules applied. What you are quite diligently setting up then is a cyber bully haven where only the victims get punished.

That doesn't make any sense. Biting back is a sign of weakness. Harden up = get over it and move on.

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I say to you quite simply, the place needs rules, the rules do not need to be rocket science and they need to be behaviour focussed and not necessarily content (in all instances) focussed. Finally, the rules do need to be monitored, enforced and reviewed from time to time.

Have you discovered the rules yet? Or do you just like stating the obvious?

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Make people feel safe and they will debate robustly, leave them feeling unsafe and they will cop abuse (which is not robust, nor is it debate) until they snap. IF they contact moderators, it somehow becomes "known" in select instances and the victim is further harassed.

It becomes known because the people announce that they have dobbed someone in.

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Tell me that isn't how it works and I will tell you that you lie.

It works like this. If you see a breach, report it. Then get over it. If you bite back, you will get banned also, and rightly so. I am not here to babysit your bitchfests and I have no interest in figuring out who started it. If you cannot control yourself, you do not belong here.

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No, you are either dead wrong or deliberately lying.

I speak from experience over many sites and forums. The worst thing you can do is announce people's suspensions.

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The minute mods spot the new thread they nuke and boot any and all who participate in it if that is absolutely necessary.

There are several problems with this. 1) mods do not spot it straight away (we are not babysitters) 2) People simply have the same bitchfest in more subtle ways 3. it just moves the discussion about bans to where you cannot moderate it, but the bitching stays here.

If someone wants to discuss their ban in public, they are welcome to.

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Oh, and news flash, judging from the past few weeks stuff at least, it is not only happening in other threads, it also is happening in another forum. Now what is the common link there?

It is happening across half a dozen or so websites run by different people. I do not control the internet, just my tiny patch of it. I cannot make you safe and it would be misleading for me to make any claims otherwise.

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So, you ask a question and without waiting for an answer, decide on the answer and proclaim "dumb idea"....

I cannot imagine any interpretation of your suggestion that is not stupid. But please, enlighten me.

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No such thing as borderline if your rules are well articulated and put in place for the right purpose.

There is always borderline and there is always a dedicated group of drama queens devoted to seeking it out. I can only imagine that your claim stems from no genuine experience modding online forums.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Phemanderac

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #106 - May 29^th, 2014 at 10:02am

Well mate, thank you for articulating your justification as to your aspirations for mediocrity.

The bottom line is, it is your board so it is your way or the highway. So much therefore, for the bullshit about being democratic.

As to the boards supposed success, that is entirely subjective.

Anyway, it is clear that this is not debatable, at least to any logical purpose.

I would note the number of posters, particularly the fairly recent three stooges who have instigated, promulgated and driven the "flame wars" that have plagued the place over recent weeks have all, at various points stated quite clearly that they are "defending" themselves. By any standard, that would be that weakness that you speak of, you know, "biting back". Even that rule therefore, would appear to be utter garbage. Oh, wait, I know you will say no one PM'd you about it. So in effect, you are saying that mods can respond reactively (not proactively), which by any standard of logic would actually equate to "biting back" i.e. responding... Yet, the membership base face a ban for doing exactly that.....

The irony regarding your "victimhood" rubbish is that, if someone feels the need to "defend" themselves, that would indicate some feeling of having been attacked... i.e. that they are a victim. Your personal phobias about the word "victim" really should not influence fair and unbiased moderation/administration.

Yes, I read the rules, a few times. I am not sure if you were trying to make some point by asking, however, I would make the point that the rules do not in anyway reflect what goes on in the place. That would be a failure in both how they are articulated and how they are applied/enforced. I have no expectation that you will either grasp this or agree with it, let's face it, that would rather require some serious self reflection. Something not particularly evident.

However, I would draw your attention to the very rule in question.

"Personal criticism
Do not post personal criticism of other members. Do not respond to personal criticism of yourself or other members. This is the biggest problem on OzPolitic. Too many members are easily baited into off-topic personal exchanges. If you participate in any kind of flame war you will be suspended, regardless of who started it or who you think ‘deserved it’. "

I suspect this is the main one in question here.

So, this is, in effect two separate rules, neither of which are actually applied proactively.

Do not post personal criticism would, at face value appear fairly clear cut. Of course, it becomes less clear cut with the paragraph that follow speaking directly to responding to personal criticism. Clearly, it sets up a system whereby, the individual can be judged rather than the action.

People who are criticised certainly do make choices. That much is understood. I guess there was some intent that this rule would minimise conflict in the place, to be fair, but to be equally fair, it is obviously flawed. Your default position is to blame the membership... LOL. You are not a baby sitter after all, yet, that is or at least would seem to be exactly what is required.

What I see happen quite clearly with this set up is that the personal criticism pretty much goes along with impunity. Then someone responds. This then sets up the scenario whereby, basically the mod/admin can pick and choose who they implement the rules on. That is the problem with consistency.

Bottom line, it is either unacceptable to post personal criticism or it isn't. IF you or any of your "team" cannot work out what is personal criticism and what isn't then perhaps you or your team need to reconsider your position. Of course, you don't have to, I get that, you own the place.

As to responding to personal criticism, it is clearly unrealistic to expect that the majority of people will not bite back as it were. This "weakness" as you put it, is human behaviour.

I would suggest the real "weakness" here is the duplicitous articulation of rules and, the hidden agenda of those enforcing them.

Of course, that is just me disagreeing with your opinion.

On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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cods

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #107 - May 29^th, 2014 at 10:16am

I think you have to take into account..

we are all only responsible for our own behavior sad but true..

we cannot stop anyone from making personal attacks..rude unfair ones in particular.

we can only stop our own retaliation...

otherwise two wrongs then do not make a right..

we tend to read rules as applying to someone else not so much ourselves....as we always see our own actions as justified....

he said it first... Roll Eyes

childish but then so many on here are childish..

if a mod sees it as one being as bad as the other....then thats the way we have to suck it up...its no different at the footy one sees it one way and others another.. but action has to be taken...it will always upset someone no matter what..

some are more unreasonable than others phem..some are less demanding...

I dont know what the mods or FD puts up with..and I guess neither do you...

I only see life on here from the few boards I go into...most I havent even opened to see what goes on.... but from some of the behavior more so in the past it was very very childish.....and yes sometimes I joined in... Cheesy

what was I thinking??...its human nature.. deal with it mate...nothing is perfect even the rules but they are better than none at all...think about those traffic lights....how annoying they can be,....

do we ever think about life without them?? of course we dont..

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Rhet-Oracle Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 408	Re: What is the purpose of rules? Reply #108 - May 29^th, 2014 at 10:22am The purpose of a rule is not what some here seem to think; an excuse to whinge and complain and seek to threaten or have members banned because they don't agree that their response which is often a result of their goading and indirect abuse. Quite a number of members like to threaten to "report".
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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #109 - May 29^th, 2014 at 1:18pm

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Well mate, thank you for articulating your justification as to your aspirations for mediocrity.

I don't think being a babysitter for a bunch of children who cannot control themselves online is an aspiration. My aspiration is for people to learn self control and for this to become part of the culture here.

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The bottom line is, it is your board so it is your way or the highway. So much therefore, for the bullshit about being democratic.

Whose BS would that be?

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Anyway, it is clear that this is not debatable, at least to any logical purpose.

So this debate doesn't exist? Not being able to change my mind is not a limitation placed on the debate, nor even on your powers of persuasion.

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I would note the number of posters, particularly the fairly recent three stooges who have instigated, promulgated and driven the "flame wars" that have plagued the place over recent weeks have all, at various points stated quite clearly that they are "defending" themselves. By any standard, that would be that weakness that you speak of, you know, "biting back". Even that rule therefore, would appear to be utter garbage. Oh, wait, I know you will say no one PM'd you about it. So in effect, you are saying that mods can respond reactively (not proactively), which by any standard of logic would actually equate to "biting back" i.e. responding... Yet, the membership base face a ban for doing exactly that.....

If you respond to personal insults with personal insults, you will be banned. Send the mods a PM instead. This is a good rule.

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The irony regarding your "victimhood" rubbish is that, if someone feels the need to "defend" themselves, that would indicate some feeling of having been attacked... i.e. that they are a victim. Your personal phobias about the word "victim" really should not influence fair and unbiased moderation/administration.

It doesn't. I merely said that victimhood is no excuse. Labelling one party the victim and thus excusing rule breaking on their part is in fact taking sides.

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So, this is, in effect two separate rules, neither of which are actually applied proactively.

It is the same rule. I am just trying to drive home the point that there are no excuses and their is no point claiming victimhood. Self control is expected from all.

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Of course, it becomes less clear cut with the paragraph that follow speaking directly to responding to personal criticism.

I have no idea why that confuses you.

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Clearly, it sets up a system whereby, the individual can be judged rather than the action.

You have it backwards. The action is judged. Assigning victimhood is judging the individual.

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Your default position is to blame the membership... LOL.

The position is that we suspend people who break the rules and don't accept victimhood as an excuse.

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This then sets up the scenario whereby, basically the mod/admin can pick and choose who they implement the rules on.

We can only act on what we see. That is not picking and choosing.

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As to responding to personal criticism, it is clearly unrealistic to expect that the majority of people will not bite back as it were. This "weakness" as you put it, is human behaviour.

I have found that people are capable of learning very quickly, if given the right incentives. 200 years ago people may have claimed it is unrealistic to expect a man not to kill someone who insults them. This is not a reflection of human behaviour, but of culture. It is the culture I am trying to change.

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I would suggest the real "weakness" here is the duplicitous articulation of rules and, the hidden agenda of those enforcing them.

How is it duplicitous? You seem to be seeing things that are not actually there, then accusing me of lying by not putting them there for you to see.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Black Orchid Gold Member Offline Posts: 5818 Gender:	Re: What is the purpose of rules? Reply #110 - May 29^th, 2014 at 4:24pm People interpret rules differently but, with the absence of any, greater chaos would ensue.
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Phemanderac

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #111 - Jun 4^th, 2014 at 4:15pm

Well it sure as hell seems that the self control theory isa tad naive/optomistic/lacking insight.

A cursory review of the boards would seem to suggest a clicky little flamewar merrily skipping accross a number of boards. No complaint here (hardly seems a point) , just an observation.

I am curious if the term "I am going to defend myself" equates to mitigation (f the rules. I have seen it pop up a few times by a range of posters is all.

On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49836 At my desk.	Re: What is the purpose of rules? Reply #112 - Jun 4^th, 2014 at 7:48pm "Defending yourself" is no excuse for breaking the rules.
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Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #113 - Jun 16^th, 2014 at 10:40pm

Why - to be broken,of course.

It depends on the kind of rules - for instance you can outlaw mass murder but not economic activity that results in mass death or increased death and illness due to poverty of some.

Rules are menat to be both a guide in life and something to be tested.

Why - our Illustrious Prim Monster right now is testing the rules - and testing the waters - to see how much of that sh1t floating in the sewer of politics the ordinary person will take before spitting it out.

I've said for a long, long time that politicians are like children - in more way than one, but particularly in this way - they will test their limits and will gleefully tap-dance all the way to the bank when they sneak one over on us - then come back and try it again.

That is why we need to keep them on a very tight leash. Same as managers of companies and the like.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Ex Dame Pansi Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 24168	Re: What is the purpose of rules? Reply #114 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 6:27am Good work moderator Andrei Hicks, you cleaned up the mess made in the wee hours by our inebriated friend sprintcyclist, before anyone saw it.
Back to top	"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up..... IP Logged

Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: What is the purpose of rules? Reply #115 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 6:46am Sprint will not feel in the cold light of day, those posts were his finest work.
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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 109108 Melbourne Gender:	Re: What is the purpose of rules? Reply #116 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 6:48am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 6:46am: Sprint will not feel in the cold light of day, those posts were his finest work. Hi Andrei, thanks for deleting those repetitive threads. Sprint is unbalanced.
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Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #117 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 12:11pm

Cliff48 wrote on May 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

cods wrote on May 18^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

I have a question for all my grandkids if they ask about rules.....

its this..

what would you say if they decided to take away all sets of traffic lights..what would happen do you think?..

in most cases.. the answer is its chaos...

and thats what I tell them rules are.. traffic lights.... they give us all a fair share

now dont tell me you have never been fed up to the eyeballs when the lights turn red just as you get there and you give way to nothing..

do you ever try to beat the lights.....

have you even been fined for disobeying the lights..

of course we have... its human nature to break something that is an irritant....

but smart ones amongst us realise without rules.. we are a shattered broken society...

its the ones that constantly break them that find it the hardest to fit in and be happy...

treat others as you would have them treat you.

Of course it must be asked: What happens when the rules are selectively applied?

What do you tell your grandchildren then?

If you are of a certain bent here as in society - you tell them to suck it up and that's the way things are....

Or you tell them change is long overdue and as their grand-parent you are prepared to lay down your life for their better future.....

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #118 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 12:14pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 6:27am:

Good work moderator Andrei Hicks, you cleaned up the mess made in the wee hours by our inebriated friend sprintcyclist, before anyone saw it.

Damn - I would have loved to see that. Can we have a forum where all the banned/banished stuff goes? Sort of a gloves are off arena where people can slug it out... even in such things there can be grains of pure gold....

Andrei is a very odd person - seems to be quite good in some ways, but kinda lost in others... you need to get out of rhetoric and dogma, A... there's a better person awaiting you...

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: What is the purpose of rules?
Reply #119 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 1:36pm

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 12:14pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 6:27am:

Good work moderator Andrei Hicks, you cleaned up the mess made in the wee hours by our inebriated friend sprintcyclist, before anyone saw it.

I still wonder if it was you or I that went a lit bit crazy on the boards overnight, if Andrei would have ignored it.....left it up as a sort of punishment for lefties.

Basically it went like

I love Julie Bishop......open the thread and it said something like....I really do, there was a separate thread for every Lib/Nat party member. The whole front page was covered in it, I had a chuckle though. I should have screen shot it....never mind.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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