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Islam-aint'cha sick of it? (Read 19632 times)
Yadda
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #90 - Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 9:50pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 2nd, 2014 at 3:36pm:
Peddling your stool again, dear boy? Jolly good.

The Racial Discrimination Act is not simply about causing offence, but inflaming racial vilification
The act allows for free speech and debate on racial issues. In Bolt’s case, this was overruled because Bolt told porkie pies.

As Justice Bromberg argued:

"I have not been satisfied that the unlawful conduct that I have found occurred, is exempted from unlawfulness by Section 18D [guaranteeing free speech]. The reasons for that conclusion have to do with the manner in which the articles were written, including that they contained errors of fact, distortions of the truth and inflamatory and provocative language.

Freedom is the right to say that two plus two equals four. Tyranny promotes the right to say that two plus two equals five, just as Bolt does, just as you do, always, absolutely, never ever.

Miam miam, eh?


People (mostly Muslims) say I am wrong about Islam all the time. They also accuse me of being inflammatory. That seems like a nebulous standard to apply.

Are we forbidden from saying two plus two equals five?




Some would insist, that yes, we should be forbidden from saying such a thing.



But i would argue that we [i.e. anyone] should be permitted to make the argument, an argument,
....that two plus two equals five.

And then, imo, it up to those who find fault with such a conclusion with such a pronouncement, to demonstrate, logically, and with reason, why holding such a view [to be true], is in error.



We have the right to be mistaken.

It is only human - to be mistaken.

But it is devilish, imo, to unreasonably reject what is obviously and demonstrably, true.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #91 - Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:24pm
 
If you’re making your maths up about an individual or group in your nationally syndicated column or radio show, sure.

Vilification and libel laws have clauses for free and fair debate and information found to be in the public interest.

But seriously, FD, are you saying you aren’t seeking to inflame?

No one’s saying you can’t tell lies. You do not have the legal right, however, to knowingly propagate and spread lies that negatively impact on individuals (or corporations).
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #92 - Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:32pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 9:50pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 2nd, 2014 at 3:36pm:
Peddling your stool again, dear boy? Jolly good.

The Racial Discrimination Act is not simply about causing offence, but inflaming racial vilification
The act allows for free speech and debate on racial issues. In Bolt’s case, this was overruled because Bolt told porkie pies.

As Justice Bromberg argued:

"I have not been satisfied that the unlawful conduct that I have found occurred, is exempted from unlawfulness by Section 18D [guaranteeing free speech]. The reasons for that conclusion have to do with the manner in which the articles were written, including that they contained errors of fact, distortions of the truth and inflamatory and provocative language.

Freedom is the right to say that two plus two equals four. Tyranny promotes the right to say that two plus two equals five, just as Bolt does, just as you do, always, absolutely, never ever.

Miam miam, eh?


People (mostly Muslims) say I am wrong about Islam all the time. They also accuse me of being inflammatory. That seems like a nebulous standard to apply.

Are we forbidden from saying two plus two equals five?




Some would insist, that yes, we should be forbidden from saying such a thing.



But i would argue that we [i.e. anyone] should be permitted to make the argument, an argument,
....that two plus two equals five.

And then, imo, it up to those who find fault with such a conclusion with such a pronouncement, to demonstrate, logically, and with reason, why holding such a view [to be true], is in error.



We have the right to be mistaken.

It is only human - to be mistaken.

But it is devilish, imo, to unreasonably reject what is obviously and demonstrably, true.



We do. Bolt, however, was not mistaken. He was found to be knowingly disseminating crap.

If you think this should be a right in a "free" society, you’re up there with Bolt and the old boy.

Do you want to uphold your right to tell porkie pies, Y?
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« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:43pm by Mattyfisk »  
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #93 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 8:08am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:24pm:
If you’re making your maths up about an individual or group in your nationally syndicated column or radio show, sure.

Vilification and libel laws have clauses for free and fair debate and information found to be in the public interest.

But seriously, FD, are you saying you aren’t seeking to inflame?

No one’s saying you can’t tell lies. You do not have the legal right, however, to knowingly propagate and spread lies that negatively impact on individuals (or corporations).


You make it sound like 18c is a carbon copy of our libel laws - for black people.

Should be be illegal to "seek to inflame"?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #94 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 9:48am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2014 at 8:08am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:24pm:
If you’re making your maths up about an individual or group in your nationally syndicated column or radio show, sure.

Vilification and libel laws have clauses for free and fair debate and information found to be in the public interest.

But seriously, FD, are you saying you aren’t seeking to inflame?

No one’s saying you can’t tell lies. You do not have the legal right, however, to knowingly propagate and spread lies that negatively impact on individuals (or corporations).


You make it sound like 18c is a carbon copy of our libel laws - for black people.
?


If you think racial and religious vilification applies only to "black people", be my guest.

All I’m saying is that the old boy’s article written by an academic "with an aboriginal anscestry" that the Australian found is ridiculous.
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freediver
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #95 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 9:57am
 
You have been saying a lot more than that Karnal. Own it.
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Soren
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #96 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 10:26am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 9:17pm:

There’s the rub, old boy - a sensible discussion that seeks to raise awareness of an issue or a libelous and sustained program of hysterical rants that distort the truth.




Sensible or libellous - yes.

But not racially discriminatory or 'offensive'.

As the Dillon article points out, aborigines abusing each other will never end up in the 'race' courts. That is proof that what matters is who is speaking, not what is said. That's why 18c has inherently racist aspects - it's about groups, about group identity.





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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #97 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 11:41am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2014 at 9:57am:
You have been saying a lot more than that Karnal. Own it.


The anti-discrimination legislation does not prevent debate about race or religion.

Consider yourself owned. Would you like to insert me in your Wiki?

Oo-er.
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freediver
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #98 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 1:21pm
 
I think Andrew Bolt would disagree with you.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #99 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 2:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2014 at 1:21pm:
I think Andrew Bolt would disagree with you.


Good point, FD. Forget everything I’ve said and go with Andrew Bolt.

He’s your man.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #100 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 2:33pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 4th, 2014 at 10:26am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 9:17pm:

There’s the rub, old boy - a sensible discussion that seeks to raise awareness of an issue or a libelous and sustained program of hysterical rants that distort the truth.




Sensible or libellous - yes.

But not racially discriminatory or 'offensive'.

As the Dillon article points out, aborigines abusing each other will never end up in the 'race' courts. That is proof that what matters is who is speaking, not what is said. That's why 18c has inherently racist aspects - it's about groups, about group identity.







Your Dillon article is a desperate attempt by the Australian to defend News Ltd, the other defendant in the Bolt case.

An academic with Aboriginal anscestry, eh? How convenient.

Watch what you say around him, old boy. If you disagree, you might just find yourself on the stand for racial discrimination.

You could always counter-sue, I imagine - as a Freudian, I mean.

Sometimes a stool is just a stool, eh?
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #101 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 2:51pm
 
Repeal dusty sections of Racial Discrimination Act

CHRISTOPHER PEARSON THE AUSTRALIAN OCTOBER 01, 2011 12:00AM

IN 1981 the students union at James Cook University and the Townsville Treaty Committee convened a three-day event on the theme of land rights and the future of race relations.

Henry Reynolds, a historian, wanted to defuse an argument about whether one of the speakers was, as he claimed, an Aborigine.

He moved a motion: "This conference recognises that the prerequisite for Aboriginality is cultural loyalty and not any false 19th-century genetic theory."

There were a few jokes doing the rounds shortly afterwards about "unleashing the inner Aborigine in us all".

Even so, the radical implications of the idea that racial identity might no longer depend on bloodlines but on cultural loyalty passed almost unnoticed. Aboriginality had, in influential circles, become negotiable.

It was a development that suited some people very well. For example, a poor, fair-skinned Tasmanian could claim a slight element of Aboriginal descent but, being unable to prove it beyond doubt, could affirm their identity, claim their extended family had a mixed-race connection they'd been encouraged to keep quiet about, and suddenly be eligible to apply for various grants and special entitlements.

It didn't suit members of the Half-Castes Association in Darwin at all. They'd stressed their mixed racial origins and wanted to be exempt from the laws that had previously prevented some kinds of racial intermarriage and the consumption of alcohol by Aborigines. They were made to feel as though any attempt on their part to negotiate their way out of a partly indigenous identity -- one that ought to be a badge of honour of paramount importance -- was a betrayal.

In 1983 Justice Gerard Brennan ruled that: "While proof of descent or lack of descent could confirm or contradict an assertion or claim of membership of a race, descent alone does not ordinarily exhaust the characteristics of a racial group."

What, if anything, does the gnomic second half of that sentence mean? It strikes me as a proxy for the position that, contestable bloodlines notwithstanding, you can be deemed a member of a racial group if you identify as one of them and if other members of the group accept you as one of them. If so, Aboriginality had indeed become negotiable.

In the early 1980s the politics of identity were played pretty relentlessly. Any of the usual indicators from what Marxists would describe as your class position to your sexual orientation, ethnic origins and faith or lack of it could be used in a combative way, with scant regard for individual complexity, to pin down who essentially you were.

Marxists of various kinds tended to think your class position determined and explained almost everything about you. For women's and gay liberation, it was at least as much about where you located yourself on the straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender spectrum. (If you had the misfortune to be both male and straight, it helped if you were noisily apologetic about it.)
  (that you PB?

Just about any non-English racial connections tended to be seen as assets in those days. Aboriginal ancestry brought instant credibility, as did African and African-American origins. They were in a special category where religious affiliation was not merely able to be overlooked but was a positive advantage, especially if funky and tribal.

For younger readers, the last few paragraphs may seem fanciful -- the sort of thing that couldn't really happen in modern Australia. But every generation's ideological blinkers come to look a bit bizarre in time.

In the 80s, when Aboriginality enjoyed a sudden cachet and some privileges, Tasmanian people with claims to one part in 64 of indigenous descent were making the most of them and adopting a rhetoric in which the other 63 parts were dismissed as being of no consequence.

At the same time, many of their siblings exercised the conscious choice not to identify as Aboriginal. In some cases, it was a matter of having struggled so hard to keep up within the lumpenproletariat that they couldn't bear the idea of falling what many would regard as one rung further down the ladder. While most people who now identify as Aboriginal are inclined to say they've always done so, at least in urban settings racial identity tends to be less of a fait accompli than a liminal zone, where individuals have options.

There have been other cases, where people with South Sea Islander backgrounds or fathers or grandfathers who had been black American servicemen stationed here in World War II ended up identifying as Aborigines. Sometimes it was self-deceiving, sometimes an orphan's honest mistake. Often it was the easiest way to turn life at the margins to advantage. But, along with the other elements of negotiability, it has left a legacy of suspicion that attaches to people claiming Aboriginality who don't conform to most people's expectations about what Aborigines look like.

Herald Sun journalist and blogger Andrew Bolt has just lost a famous case. Two of his articles conveyed offensive messages about the complainants, saying they were not genuinely Aboriginal but were pretending to be "so they could access benefits that are available to Aboriginal people". Unusually, the case wasn't a defamation suit but was fought over some contentious provisions of the Racial Discriminatio
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #102 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 2:53pm
 
My old friend and sparring partner Gary Johns cut to the chase with a fine column on the subject in Thursday's edition of The Australian. "Cultural identity is arguable and should be discussed in a free and open manner. If not, then Australia is entering a world where Aboriginal people, especially those of light colour and claiming discrimination (or favours) based upon their race, become a laughing-stock. Is this what the activists wanted? Forget constitutional recognition, this decision has undercut goodwill."

Justice Mordecai Bromberg made no bones about the fact the Racial Discrimination Act has curtailed free speech. "What Mr Bolt did and what he failed to do did not evince a conscientious approach to advancing freedom of expression in a way designed to honour the values asserted by the RDA." Let us hope the matter is appealed and that, if Bromberg's judgment is upheld, the act's problematic provisions are repealed.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/repeal-dusty-sections-o...


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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #103 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 7:26pm
 
I say, old dear. You’re posting all these articles about how terrible the Racial Discrimination Act is because it prevents us from talking frankly about race. And each of those articles somehow manages to talk frankly about race.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?

Let’s blame Islam - just to be on the safe side.
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freediver
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Re: Islam-aint'cha sick of it?
Reply #104 - Jun 4th, 2014 at 7:53pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 4th, 2014 at 2:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2014 at 1:21pm:
I think Andrew Bolt would disagree with you.


Good point, FD. Forget everything I’ve said and go with Andrew Bolt.

He’s your man.


The point is, it will have a chilling effect on debate, particularly with judges declaring that being wrong or having the wrong attitude can get you dragged through the courts.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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