Australian Politics Forum - Is this a product of Islam or not?

Lord Herbert

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Is this a product of Islam or not?
May 28^th, 2014 at 8:48am

Are there passages in Islam's sacred texts that condone this sort of behaviour?

A 25-year-old Pakistani woman has been stoned to death by her family outside the Lahore High Court in a so-called 'honour killing' for marrying the man she loved, police said.

Farzana Iqbal was waiting for the court to open when a group of around dozen men began attacking her with bricks, said senior police officer Umer Cheema.

Her father, two brothers and former fiance were among the attackers, he said.

Ms Iqbal suffered severe head injuries and was pronounced dead in hospital.

All the suspects except her father escaped arrest.

He admitted killing his daughter and explained it was a matter of honour.

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #1 - May 28^th, 2014 at 8:51am I don't think the Koran has anything specific to say. But honour killings arent strictly a Islamic domain, so I'd say its more about strongly patriachial societies
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #2 - May 28^th, 2014 at 8:59am

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 8:51am:

I don't think the Koran has anything specific to say. But honour killings arent strictly a Islamic domain, so I'd say its more about strongly patriachial societies

Okay. I'm just asking.

But that leaves the question: How is it that Pakistan's Sharia Law has virtually no punishment for these horrific acts of violence?

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salad in Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5941	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #3 - May 28^th, 2014 at 9:07am The rich interwoven totemism of Islam and muslims is something we should cherish. Halla loves nothing more than a good lapidation and hand-chopping. Islam is a religion of peace.
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #4 - May 28^th, 2014 at 9:16am link How do Muslims explain this to an outsider?
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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #5 - May 28^th, 2014 at 9:35am

Horrific story.

Herbert, to answer your question, stoning isn't mentioned in the Quran. 100 lashes is, though I think that's for adultery. I'm sure Gandalf or one of the other relevant Muslims will correct that if I'm wrong. Stoning is mentioned in Hadith, which are stories related by people who knew Muhammad and his teachings. The vast majority of hadith are false.

As someone else said, this is more about patriarchy and the misogyny that is deeply ingrained in a lot of Muslim societies - it's a cultural problem and a very serious one.

The last story you posted can't even be linked to any Islamic hadith that I've ever read. The husband was a Muslim and Muslim women are free to marry whoever they choose, as long as he's also a Muslim. Women are encouraged to seek the guidance of their parents, but forced marriages are prohibited.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #6 - May 28^th, 2014 at 11:37am

Thanks for that, Annie.

The bulk of the hadith are lies? Hmmm ... the needle on my scepticism meter is wavering dangerously close to the red background on the far right ...

I'm wondering if this claim isn't just a convenient disclaimer in order to avoid having to answer some prickly questions.

I've just fished these up:

These hadith narrations have formed the controversial basis of the Shariah models of "Islamic law", despite the contradictions they contain with regards to the Quran itself, such as regarding the punishment for Zina in the hadith (stoning to death) contradicts the Quran,

Fair enough. But then the justification for stoning to death is taken from the authority of the hadith.

The Hadith has also had a profound influence on molding the commentaries (tafsir) on the Quran. The earliest commentary of the Quran by Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari is mostly sourced from the hadith, in-line with Tabari's Athari creed which considered rational inquiry in matters of religion to be forbidden.

That shows a very close alliance between the hadith and the Koran.

As the application of deductive reasoning in deriving laws directly from the Quran was sidelined, the arbitrary authority of the hadith was used to replace the Quran in forming the basis of 'Shariah' Law.

If the hadith is mainly lies, then it logically follows that the authority of Sharia Laws must be based on very shaky ground indeed.

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100 lashes for adultery in the Koran? Ouch. That's a little excessive isn't it? 50 would do. Only the female, of course ... Tongue

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #7 - May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm

No this is not a product of islam, and the first thing I would point out is that the perpetrator himself didn't even mention islam as his justification, he cited family honour.

As for punishment, the quran prescribes lashing (and the act itself has strict rules like not being allowed to bend the elbow - such that it does not cause serious injury, and is actually very mild) and/or house arrest.

The ahadith have a couple of mentions of the prophet ordering stoning. Here's what bothers me: you have the quran and ahadith - both mention different punishments. Any muslim will tell you that the quran trumps ahadith, yet the hudud fan club will always go with stoning. And secondly, the quran is an actual specific command to muslims of how this should be punished. The ahadith is merely mentioning what the prophet did - doesn't say this is the prescribed punishment for all time and places.

Common sense dictates that the quranic prescription is the actual law for muslims to follow, and the prophetic example mentioned in the ahadith - especially when it contradicts quranic law - is just an historical account of how The Prophet ruled in his time and place. It can be argued that those muslims who order stoning for adultery are directly violating quranic - and therefore islamic - law.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #8 - May 28^th, 2014 at 1:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

No this is not a product of islam, and the first thing I would point out is that the perpetrator didn't even mention islam as his justification, he cited family honour.

Sorry, Gandalf, but EVERYTHING is shrouded, couched, and drenched in 'Islam' in that part of the world. Culture derives from religious text in most societies.

It's not necessary for them to state the obvious. The hadith cites the case of someone having been stoned for adultery, with no accompanying words of disapproval for this act.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

As for punishment, the quran prescribes lashing (and the act itself has strict rules like not being allowed to bend the elbow - such that it does not cause serious injury, and is actually very mild) and/or house arrest.

So the Koran doesn't approve of ... "100 lashes for adultery"? Is that correct?

Gandalf, if we're going to have this conversation, could we please keep it real? There's absolutely no point if you believe you owe it to the Muslim community to play Defence Counsel with a lot of dodgy and slippery rhetoric.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

The ahadith have a couple of mentions of the prophet ordering stoning.

Ah-HA! Thank you. The sad thing is that millions of Muslims living in the rural areas of the world take this as something they can emulate in their own village lives. It's sponsored by the hadith.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Here's what bothers me: you have the quran and ahadith - both mention different punishments. Any muslim will tell you that the quran trumps ahadith, yet the hudud fan club will always go with stoning.

***

Hudud (Arabic: حدود Ḥudūd, also transliterated hadud, hudood; singular hadd, حد, literal meaning "limit", or "restriction") is the word often used in Islamic literature for the bounds of acceptable behaviour and the punishments for serious crimes. In Islamic law or Sharia, hudud usually refers to the class of punishments that are fixed for certain crimes that are considered to be "claims of God." They include theft, fornication (zina) and adultery (extramarital sex), consumption of alcohol or other intoxicants, and apostasy (see apostasy in Islam).

***

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

And secondly, the quran is an actual specific command to muslims of how this should be punished. The ahadith is merely mentioning what the prophet did - doesn't say this is the prescribed punishment for all time and places.

But certain conclusions can be drawn from his example, surely? He was a model for all future generations of Muslim.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Common sense dictates that the quranic prescription is the actual law for muslims to follow, and the prophetic example mentioned in the ahadith - especially when it contradicts quranic law - is just an historical account of how The Prophet ruled in his time and place. It can be argued that those muslims who order stoning for adultery are directly violating quranic - and therefore islamic - law.

That doesn't hold water. Too many two-way bets here. Too much placing the chips on a whole lot of roulette numbers in the hope one will be a winner.

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Adamant

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #9 - May 28^th, 2014 at 2:42pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 9:35am:

The husband was a Muslim and Muslim women are free to marry whoever they choose, as long as he's also a Muslim. Women are encouraged to seek the guidance of their parents, but forced marriages are prohibited.

I don't believe this is true, many muslim women around the world have been killed for wanting to marry for love. In a Sydney court at the moment is the forced underage marriage of a muslim girl. In a more muslim part of the world http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2014/05/16/from-jewess-sol-hachuel-to-christian... And so on and so on and so and.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #10 - May 28^th, 2014 at 3:46pm

Adamant wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 2:42pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 9:35am:

The husband was a Muslim and Muslim women are free to marry whoever they choose, as long as he's also a Muslim. Women are encouraged to seek the guidance of their parents, but forced marriages are prohibited.

I don't believe this is true, many muslim women around the world have been killed for wanting to marry for love. In a Sydney court at the moment is the forced underage marriage of a muslim girl. In a more muslim part of the world http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2014/05/16/from-jewess-sol-hachuel-to-christian... And so on and so on and so and.

I should have added "according to Islamic law." It is, of course, not the reality for many women and girls throughout the Muslim world.

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #11 - May 28^th, 2014 at 4:15pm Annie Anthrax wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 3:46pm: according to Islamic law." I, nor any thinking individual that lives in a civilized society has need of "Islamic Law". Islam is the most repugnant of ALL death wish religions. Please, for your sake have a look around.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #12 - May 28^th, 2014 at 4:29pm

Lord Herbert wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:39pm:

The hadith cites the case of someone having been stoned for adultery

Why are we even talking about adultery? The girl was stoned because she married someone who made the family feel embarassed - nothing to do with adultery, and nothing to do with islam.

The entire direction of this thread fails.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #13 - May 28^th, 2014 at 5:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 4:29pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 1:39pm:

The hadith cites the case of someone having been stoned for adultery

Why are we even talking about adultery?

But we're not talking about 'adultery' ~ as you very well know. We're talking about an Islamic religious text that reports Mohammad as having ordered a stoning at least a couple of times ... leading us to the reasonable conclusion that some followers of Islam feel his example provides them with the excuse to do the same.

Quote:

The ahadith have a couple of mentions of the prophet ordering stoning.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 4:29pm:

The girl was stoned because she married someone who made the family feel embarassed ........ nothing to do with islam.

And beside the hadith providing a model for certain Muslims of a fundamentalist mindset to resort to this horrendous type of capital punishment, the perpetrators confirmed their Muslim credentials by using stoning as their preferred method of execution.

Not a rope. Not a bullet. Not a knife.

Stoning.

As in the Hadith.

As ordered by the prophet.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 4:29pm:

...... nothing to do with islam.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #14 - May 28^th, 2014 at 5:26pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 28^th, 2014 at 9:35am:

Horrific story.

Herbert, to answer your question, stoning isn't mentioned in the Quran. 100 lashes is, though I think that's for adultery. I'm sure Gandalf or one of the other relevant Muslims will correct that if I'm wrong. Stoning is mentioned in Hadith, which are stories related by people who knew Muhammad and his teachings. The vast majority of hadith are false.

As someone else said, this is more about patriarchy and the misogyny that is deeply ingrained in a lot of Muslim societies - it's a cultural problem and a very serious one.

The last story you posted can't even be linked to any Islamic hadith that I've ever read. The husband was a Muslim and Muslim women are free to marry whoever they choose, as long as he's also a Muslim. Women are encouraged to seek the guidance of their parents, but forced marriages are prohibited.

Quote:

........Muslim women are free to marry whoever they choose, as long as he's also a Muslim...

so they are not free to marry.

forced marriages happen often in islam.

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