Australian Politics Forum - Is this a product of Islam or not?

Mattywisk

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #45 - May 30^th, 2014 at 2:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 29^th, 2014 at 10:06pm:

moses wrote on May 29^th, 2014 at 8:56pm:

The qur'an has an entirely different view to you Ghandi:

qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."

The word used is يثخن which literally means 'thickens' - a better translation is 'subdued' or 'subjugated' the land:

Yusuf Ali:
It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land.

Dr Ghali:
In no way can any Prophet have captives until he has subjugated (the enemy) in the earth

Yet most translations don't use that nor have I found the word "thickens" used in any of the 40 translations I have read already. If it was a literal translation as claimed by you would it not be used.

Funny that aint it.

Moving right along, translate the other 12 or so quoted from the Quaran, I'd be interested in your take on those as well. Wink

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #46 - May 30^th, 2014 at 3:08pm

Mattywisk wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Yet most translations don't use that

Most? Care to be more specific? Why don't you show me those 40 translations you mentioned to see how many actually use the term "slaughter" or "massacre".

Here's a list of 31 translations I found here. I think there were 3 that mentioned slaughter. Yusuf Ali is arguably the most cited and renowned English translation, and he uses subdued.

Mattywisk wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

nor have I found the word "thickens" used in any of the 40 translations I have read already

Probably because 'thickens' would make absolutely no sense. It does however need to be interpreted, and "slaughter" is just one opinion of what the word means - a minority opinion as it happens, which does not include the most famous and widely cited translator (Yusuf Ali).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #47 - May 30^th, 2014 at 3:42pm

Mattywisk wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Moving right along, translate the other 12 or so quoted from the Quaran, I'd be interested in your take on those as well.

very well...

moses wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Just a few from the hadi'th and qur'an, to show muslims are ordered to kill mercilessly.

On the battlefield - yes, and we make no apologies for that. What sane person do you know thinks its a good idea to fight a war with kid gloves? And just to be clear, all your quotes are references to the battlefield:

moses wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Is actually an account of God talking to the angels - who intervened on behalf of the muslims as they were under attack and nearly defeated. It is a reminder to the muslims that when they are threatened with destruction, God will intervene to save them.

Also I have no problem with combatants on the battlefield attempting to incapacitate and wound their enemy - do you?

moses wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

ur'an:8:57 "If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned."

The preceding verse is referring to people who had signed a treaty with the muslims then violated it. It is a reference to what muslims should do to traitors: make an example of them to dissuade the people supporting them as well as any future would-be treaty breakers.

moses wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Qur'an:7:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them."

So God has, in the past, destroyed the wicked? Wow that *MUST* be quite a revelation for a Christian right? Grin

Have you not read Genesis? The Canaanites, Lot, the flood? Ring any bells??

I believe these are the same events being referred to in 7:3-4

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #48 - May 30^th, 2014 at 4:18pm

Seems like the old:
The Quran orders restraint and non-combatants to be spared. Has gone out the window

Here are three different sources, each source gives the Arabic and the English translation.

Nothing about thickening the enemy they all use the word massacre

quran 8.67:It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah 's enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

Source

quran 8.67: It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah 's enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

Source

quran 8.67:It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah 's enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

Source

islam preaches murdering innocents

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #49 - May 30^th, 2014 at 4:31pm Hey Moses calm down Gandalf has only just got back from parking his arse. If you trolls carry on he will be a Robinson Crusoe and be Fvucked by Friday.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #50 - May 30^th, 2014 at 4:34pm

moses wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 4:18pm:

Seems like the old:
The Quran orders restraint and non-combatants to be spared. Has gone out the window

Moses, give me a single reference of me, or any other muslim claiming that muslims should show restraint on the battlefield

Do you understand yet that every one of your quotes is talking about the battlefield? Point out which of your quotes is referring to muslims slaughtering or being "unrestrained" towards non-combatants. Please. Note that one of your quotes is talking about what God did to the wicked, by his own hand and not by muslims - ala the flood and Lut.

moses wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 4:18pm:

Nothing about thickening the enemy they all use the word massacre

Yes, all three. Its probably the same three out of 31 quotes I linked to above - ie that is, 28 out of 31 *DON'T* use massacre or slaughter.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #51 - May 30^th, 2014 at 7:25pm

Quote:

No, 'thickens' is the literal translation. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Most people usually go with the meaningful translation. Did he make soup out of them?

Quote:

You didn't listen before, why would you start now?

I want to put it on my wiki.

Quote:

Yet most translations don't use that nor have I found the word "thickens" used in any of the 40 translations I have read already.

You need a translation from a progressive Muslim. Let me see if I can find you one.

Quote:

Probably because 'thickens' would make absolutely no sense.

Was that your intention?

Quote:

On the battlefield - yes, and we make no apologies for that. What sane person do you know thinks its a good idea to fight a war with kid gloves? And just to be clear, all your quotes are references to the battlefield:

Would that be the "house of war"?

Quote:

The preceding verse is referring to people who had signed a treaty with the muslims then violated it.

If only the yanks used the Muslim way of handling treaties, they wouldn't have to deal with any more of those pesky natives.

Quote:

Do you understand yet that every one of your quotes is talking about the battlefield?

When you start slaughtering people, it is a battlefield by definition. Except of course when they are bound captives, but you have other excuses for that don't you?

Quote:

Point out which of your quotes is referring to muslims slaughtering or being "unrestrained" towards non-combatants

How about you point out if Muhammed's example is a demonstration of the restraint talked about in the Koran?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #52 - May 30^th, 2014 at 8:08pm Your all over the place FD. Suggest you focus on something specific and try and argue something meaningful. As opposed to, you know, inane one line quips for everything.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49389 At my desk.	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #53 - May 30^th, 2014 at 8:37pm Gandalf has a special method of interpreting Muhammed's example that I am keen to learn more about.
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #54 - May 30^th, 2014 at 8:43pm freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 8:37pm: Gandalf has a special method of interpreting Muhammed's example that I am keen to learn more about. So am I. I wish he had been my rep that time I defaulted on my rent ... (The landlord had 'misinterpreted' my late-payment as non-payment or rent).
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49389 At my desk.	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #55 - May 30^th, 2014 at 8:44pm But would you listen if he told you?
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #56 - May 30^th, 2014 at 8:48pm

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

But would you listen if he told you?

Yes I would have, because I enjoy listening to sleight-of-tongue just as much as I enjoy watching sleight-of-hand.

Gandalf is a Master of sleight-of-tongue.

Now you see quotes by Mohammad in the Koran ~ and now you don't. It's like the disappearing rabbit in the top-hat trick (if you play the video backwards).

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« Last Edit: May 30^th, 2014 at 8:55pm by Lord Herbert »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49389 At my desk.	Re: Is this a product of Islam or not? Reply #57 - May 30^th, 2014 at 8:53pm If you have made your mind up already then there is no point telling you.
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #58 - May 30^th, 2014 at 9:01pm

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 8:53pm:

If you have made your mind up already then there is no point telling you.

Precisely.

Telling me 'religious truths' is a complete waste of time. There were learned biblical scholars at one time seriously discussing how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin.

I heard about this when I was around 13 years old ~ and promptly gave up being a 'Believer'.

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Mattywisk

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Re: Is this a product of Islam or not?
Reply #59 - May 30^th, 2014 at 9:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 3:08pm:

Mattywisk wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Yet most translations don't use that

Most? Care to be more specific? Why don't you show me those 40 translations you mentioned to see how many actually use the term "slaughter" or "massacre".

Here's a list of 31 translations I found here. I think there were 3 that mentioned slaughter. Yusuf Ali is arguably the most cited and renowned English translation, and he uses subdued.

Mattywisk wrote on May 30^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

nor have I found the word "thickens" used in any of the 40 translations I have read already

Probably because 'thickens' would make absolutely no sense. It does however need to be interpreted, and "slaughter" is just one opinion of what the word means - a minority opinion as it happens, which does not include the most famous and widely cited translator (Yusuf Ali).

Google yourself , pick the 1st 40 it aint hard.

As it happens a cursory google will show you it is a majority opinion and thickens I never saw appear once. Educate yourself.

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