Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Send Topic Print
Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ? (Read 10829 times)
Mattywisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1373
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #60 - Jun 8th, 2014 at 12:03am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 7th, 2014 at 8:26pm:
Mattywisk wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:55pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:45pm:
No, I was saying that the story of Jesus is only 600 or 700 years old, and was reignited by American pioneers who fled the enlightenment period. You can always rewrite history and books to suit your own agenda.


You can always post your opinion online too and try and rewrite history to suit yourself as well.
It goes both ways.


Your opinion concedes that I probably have a reasonable point. Why wouldn't the likelihood that a region of society that is more than 90% illiterate would also have its recorded history dictated retroactively by more modern religious scholars?

2000 years ago, historians wouldn't have had any problem embellishing the functionality of society, as well as claiming that God came to them in dreams, and that the ooga-booga demon caused earthquakes, whilst magic was what caused the earth to be the centre of the universe, blah, blah, blah...

Historians over the next 2000+ years wouldn't have had any real number of competitors to challenge them on what went on at the time. My opponents have also conceded that there wasn't any twitter, facebook, internet, up to date news which would have allowed an educated (amongst largely uneducated) society to follow up and challenge the validity of such claims. Therefore, to be able to verify the possibility of such acts, the historian is up against it to prove something that no one will challenge. But that puts him in the advantage.

So, you can imagine that my premise that "those making the assertion need to prove their point" is a valid argument. If you want to go and prove something from a time when now the dust of the involved people's bones have blown away in the wind, you really are grasping at fresh air in trying to convince a modern day agnostic that far-fetched scenarios are plausible.


I can imagine you are all cut up about something your post makes no sense at all except being some rant over information you perceive is correct for some strange reason.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattywisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1373
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #61 - Jun 8th, 2014 at 12:04am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 7th, 2014 at 8:28pm:
Mattywisk wrote on Jun 7th, 2014 at 3:21pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 7th, 2014 at 11:37am:
stryder wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 11:01pm:
Chrisitianity is stated to be around 2,000 years old on every record, but according to you its around 600 years old, and started in the american colonies ??????????


Once again... I stated that Christianity is assumed to be about 600 or 700 years old, and was revived in the American colonies, when pilgrims fled Europe in pursuit of continuing their fanaticism for their religion. I didn't say that it was invented in America. There isn't anything out there that proves that the religion was widespread 1700 years ago. Nor does the fact that people seemed unexcited by the prospect of someone, for example, "magically" being able to feed thousands of people through limited resources. Yet, then still be able to go about their day without such a life altering experience witnessed, and not made public enough that authority figures would try and make sense and use of such a strategically significant resource. It... doesn't.... make.... sense!


LOL just another persons theory.  Roll Eyes


Sounds more credible than your far-fetched theory. *laughing out loud*


If you say so Einstein.  Cheesy Cheesy

Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Moderator
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 40735
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #62 - Jun 8th, 2014 at 12:45am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 7th, 2014 at 11:37am:
stryder wrote on Jun 6th, 2014 at 11:01pm:
Chrisitianity is stated to be around 2,000 years old on every record, but according to you its around 600 years old, and started in the american colonies ??????????


Once again... I stated that Christianity is assumed to be about 600 or 700 years old, and was revived in the American colonies, when pilgrims fled Europe in pursuit of continuing their fanaticism for their religion. I didn't say that it was invented in America. There isn't anything out there that proves that the religion was widespread 1700 years ago. Nor does the fact that people seemed unexcited by the prospect of someone, for example, "magically" being able to feed thousands of people through limited resources. Yet, then still be able to go about their day without such a life altering experience witnessed, and not made public enough that authority figures would try and make sense and use of such a strategically significant resource. It... doesn't.... make.... sense!




Quote:
.....The Rise and Rescue of the Jesus Sect (50 BC to 250 AD) – Discusses Roman Judeo cultural world, Council of Jerusalem, Essenes, John the Baptist, textual evidence of Jesus, rise of the Church, Paul, Valentinius, Marcion, Tertullian, Origen, coming predominance of Roman Church and the Papacy
From Martrys to Inquisitors (250 AD to 450 AD) – Diocletian's persecution, Constantine's conversion, first official Church, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine.
Mitred Lords and Crowned Ikons (450 AD to 1054 AD) – Dark Age Christianity, monasticism, Christian relics, rise of Papacy, Carolingian age, Eastern Orthodox Church.
The Total Society and its Enemies (1054 AD to 1500 AD) – Height of Papacy, Middle Age theology, total Christian society, paying for Penance, corruption of Church, Crusades, millenarian revolts.
The Third Force (1500 AD to 1648 AD) – Reformation and Counter reformation, with an emphasis on Erasmus.
Faith, Reason and Unreason (1648 AD to 1870 AD) – Christianity's conflict with the Enlightenment, beginning of retreat of total Christian Society, Pascal, Voltaire, Protestantism, French Revolution, rerise of Papacy.
Almost Chosen Peoples (1500 AD to 1910 AD) – Christian missionaries, conversion of Latin America, East Asian Christianity, Francis Xavier, Alessandro Valignano, persecution of Japanese Christianity, American Christianity, 19th century missionary work, African Christianity.
The Nadir of Triumphalism (1870 AD to 1975 AD) – Modern Papacy, Modernity, Christianity and World War II, Nazism, decline of the Church in the West, rise of Pelagianism, Second Vatican Council.
.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_Christianity

but, don't let that stop your narrow mindedness.
Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
UnSubRocky
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Crocodile Hunter: Origins

Posts: 24835
Rockhampton
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #63 - Jun 8th, 2014 at 2:10am
 
sprintcyclist, you do realise that textbooks and articles can be based on faulty evidence. I would like to see the publisher of these books and find out where they get their information. Because I believe that the writings can be subjectively told to the reader, rather than objectively. So, you could understand that, even considering your concessions, few people were literate and few travelled very far. That's what undid my enthusiasm for religion over 22 years ago. Illiterate, untravelled witnesses to an alleged miracle worker, will not help the credibility of a religion's survival. Especially for one that lives nearly 2000 years after their supposed death.

But then again, perhaps I haven't thoroughly explored the question well enough. Perhaps we could also say that Jesus really was a real person, but he lived 5000 years ago. And the bible stories were collaborated into one book and disseminated officially 1700 years ago. There could be any number of possibilities, and I think it wrong of you people to dismiss my views simply on the basis that I'm one of the growing 35% of non-believers in religion in Australia.
Back to top
 

At this stage...
WWW  
IP Logged
 
UnSubRocky
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Crocodile Hunter: Origins

Posts: 24835
Rockhampton
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #64 - Jun 8th, 2014 at 2:29am
 
Mattywisk wrote on Jun 8th, 2014 at 12:03am:
I can imagine you are all cut up about something your post makes no sense at all except being some rant over information you perceive is correct for some strange reason.


Why would I be "all cut up about something" whilst posting to a topic that I seem to have more experience in understanding. As a historian, I have been trained to know that what you read in books simply doesn't encapsulate the experience that someone had gone through to inspire some piece of text, no matter how well written the author has explicitly stated.

But for someone like yourself to claim that my posts are nonsensical rants, it's very hypocritical to claim the high ground. When it seems that you want to defend the credibility of a book that seems to discredit even God as fallible, oblivious, and acting all disillusioned to the events depicted in the first few pages of the Old Testament. Or is that part of the book the part you don't bother?

Let me guess... You are the part of society that thinks that suicidal bombers blow themselves up because "they hate our freedom"?
Back to top
 

At this stage...
WWW  
IP Logged
 
stryder
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4545
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #65 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 6:53pm
 
There are many other aspects of jesus' life where ignorance is the rule rather than the exceptions for christians and non christians alike--his relationships with judas, john the baptist, and the beloved disciple, his ungovernable temper, his fondness for wine, his decidedly unheroic appearance; hostile relations with his family which is referenced in the four gospels and the probable circumstances of his birth, it must said that in these areas the evidence which will be presented here---much of which will contradicts the accepted view---falls short of conclusive proof. All that can be said with certainty is that the conclusions drawn are more probable than the glossy mythology which has been purveyed for the last two millennia, But the essentail point is that in each case ignorance of the facts has been positively encouraged.
Robert macklin, the secret life of jesus, introduction
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
stryder
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4545
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #66 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 7:14pm
 
(con)
The reasons for this are twofold. The first--and morally the more respectable--is the belief of the established church that jesus was and is a deity, a equal participant in the three in one Godhead which they term the trinity, once that is accepted---and in the early christian centuries the dispute over its acceptance split the church and was resolved only by fierce politicking and much bloodshed---the human circumstances of jesus' existence became almost irrelevant, The study of them becomes suspiciously heretical, He is simply the christ, the only begotten son of god who appeared briefly on earth to assure a suffering humanity of gods continueing interest and to offer the way--the formula--for a blissful afterlife.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
stryder
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4545
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #67 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 7:48pm
 
(con)
The other, less commendable reason is the church's deep concern to present jesus in the most attractive light possible, to universalise him so that his appeal is as powerful to a peruvian street child as it is to a millionaire american president, To this end they have highlighted some elements with a fierce intensity---Suffer the little children'--love your enemies'--˙ou brood of vipers'...I have come to set a man against his father.....--to the shadows of obstruction and obscurity.
They have in effect "packaged"his personality. They have removed his rantings, they have washed him; they have modelled him by Michelangelo and costumed him by Giotto; they have demotivated and dehumanised him; they have removed him from his time and place; they have moulded him to their will. For their own continueing glorication they have played with the truth and turned their plaything into a virtue.
Robert macklin, the secret life of jesus.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 104221
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #68 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 8:24pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jun 5th, 2014 at 9:15pm:



Did anyone watch the above video?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
miketrees
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6490
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #69 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:05pm
 
The most logical explanation is that Jesus was just a man.
When in doubt go the most logical and least complicated.

But Monty Python certainly showed how the truth can be misconstrued.

I found the scene when one group had taken to tieing sandals to poles a great example. (after Bwian had lost a sandal when running from the Romans)

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
stryder
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4545
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #70 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:07pm
 
miketrees wrote on Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:05pm:
The most logical explanation is that Jesus was just a man.
When in doubt go the most logical and least complicated.

But Monty Python certainly showed how the truth can be misconstrued.

I found the scene when one group had taken to tieing sandals to poles a great example. (after Bwian had lost a sandal when running from the Romans)




Many atheists believe he never existed at all that he was an invention by some jewish playright.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
miketrees
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6490
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #71 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:18pm
 
Well so long after the fact it hardly matters, but I think he probably existed.
Jesus is credited with some great teachings, so as long as we can learn from that his existence hardly matters.

Not the crap thats lurking in the Old Testament tho, thats just nasty stuff
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
stryder
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4545
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #72 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:45pm
 
miketrees wrote on Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:18pm:
Well so long after the fact it hardly matters, but I think he probably existed.
Jesus is credited with some great teachings, so as long as we can learn from that his existence hardly matters.

Not the crap thats lurking in the Old Testament tho, thats just nasty stuff



Well the case for whether he existed is more plausible i think, given the impact of the story of his life and the teachings that he left behind which became one of the cornerstones of the rise of western civilisation, its ripples still last to this day, makes it hard to believe that the impact through history coming from this one person was born from someones imagination.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2014 at 11:07pm by stryder »  
 
IP Logged
 
Yadda
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 21726
A cat with a view
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #73 - Jun 11th, 2014 at 12:00am
 
miketrees wrote on Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:18pm:
Well so long after the fact it hardly matters, but I think he probably existed.

Jesus is credited with some great teachings, so as long as we can learn from that his existence hardly matters.



Yeah.

The teachings,     ....were well, great,    ....well, 'some' of them.

But the teachers' existence, is insignificant and his existence 'hardly matters' ?

Grin


miketrees,

I know that you don't have the time to waste on such an undertaking, but persons like yourself really should, try to make some time to at least read the Gospels.

And if you do read the Gospels you may notice that the teacher, Jesus, who's 'existence hardly mattered', was constantly frequently referring to, and quoting from, the O.T. "the law and the prophets".

Q.
Why so ?

A.
Coz Jesus was a Torah observant Jewish man.

[The Torah, is the Jewish law, that was given to Moses, by God.    Reputedly.     Allegedly.   Smiley    You know, that sky-faerie bloke. ]


Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.





Quote:
Not the crap thats lurking in the Old Testament tho, thats just nasty stuff


Yeah.

We can listen to that teacher, Jesus, that dude in that New Testament thingy, who had 'some great teachings'.

But not that 'nasty' O.T. stuff.         Cheesy

What did Jesus say about that 'nasty' O.T. stuff ?



Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus taught that righteousness - keeping the law - was still important.

AND, loving God - was important too - by honouring God, by trying to keep his laws.

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.






"Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother."

Matthew 19:16-19

All of those commandments, above, were quoted by Jesus, directly from the book(s) of the law, the Torah,
Exodus 20:12-16
Deuteronomy 5:16-20





New covenant, old laws.




Never old.

IMAGE....
...





If you are a Christian, and if you believe that those Old Testament laws [God's laws of righteousness] are unimportant [for you as a Christian], you are very, very, mistaken.

Read your Bible!
Back to top
 

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
IP Logged
 
stryder
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4545
Gender: male
Re: Was Jesus the son of god or just a human ?
Reply #74 - Jun 11th, 2014 at 12:59am
 
Jesus fondness of wine and a big meal,
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children
King james bible

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds." new international version


Jesus' hostililty towards parents,
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.


(con) Wedding at cana

Jesus' mother (unnamed in John's Gospel) told Jesus, "They have no wine," and Jesus replied, "O Woman, what have I to do with you? My hour has not yet come."
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2014 at 1:05am by stryder »  
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Send Topic Print